[Vision2020] Smart Growth/ was Recall the city council

[g. crabtree]

"I can't see where any of your examples are "subsidies". 

Thank you very much, Ms. Nichols! That was exactly the point I was hoping to make. None of the items I mentioned, with the exception of the bus ride, are examples of a subsidy and the city selling services to a business in Whitman county isn't either. Hawkins will be paying a rate that covers the true cost of the service they receive along with an amount built in to cover future upgrades to the system. Just like all the other residential and commercial customers of the City of Moscow's water dept.

Again, I appreciate your assistance in putting the silly and incorrect notion of a "subsidy" for the Hawkins project to rest.

g

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cynthia nichols 
  To: g. crabtree 
  Cc: Garrett Clevenger ; vision 2020 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Smart Growth/ was Recall the city council


  I can't see where any of your examples are "subsidies". I pay full price for my clothes, my house, my groceries---enough for all those businesses to make a profit (sometimes an obscene profit, by the way). And when their costs go up, so do mine. They never say to me, "boy, this has been a tough year in the economy for you, cynthia, so we'll reduce your prices til things get better".


  Our governments do (outrageously, IMHO) subsidize big business in that they give them special treatment (in the form of tax breaks, tax write-offs, cheap services, and more) even though they are making profits and COULD be paying those taxes. In the Hawkins case, instead of using their own money to fight Washington for water rights, instead of bearing the cost of drilling the well, instead of having to bear the cost of disposing of their sewage, Moscow is providing it for them--without them paying any premium price . AND they have a contract to GUARANTEE those services. Whereas I live in Moscow and I have NO SUCH GUARANTEE. So if the water runs low, guess who will do without ? If the sewage treatment plant needs to be replaced, guess who'll pay for it?  Maybe the citizens of Moscow need to write up a contract like Hawkins so that I can have that same guarantee. That might be a great legal challenge.


  cynthia


  On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:03 AM, g. crabtree wrote:

    It would seem to me that if your subsidy argument is to hold water you would have to admit to the fact that your own life is subsidized in nearly every possible way.

    It's cheaper and more convenient for you to go to Wal-Mart and buy your clothes then it is to grow cotton and raise wool and sew your own.

    It's cheaper and more convenient to buy your gasoline from a local retailer then to drill and refine your own.

    It's cheaper and more convenient to purchase food from the local grocer then it is for you to raise your own.

    Did you build your own house? Grow the trees? Mill the lumber? I guess you have been subsidized by Logging company's and carpenters.

    Do you generate your own electricity or does Avista subsidize your power and heat?

    Just because it's less expensive in the short term for Hawkins to purchase water and sewer services from Moscow doesn't mean that they are being subsidized by Idaho taxpayers. Infrastructure and future upgrades are paid for through the fees that are paid by the users not taxes. Consequently, Hawkins WILL be paying its share. No giveaway anywhere along the line that I can detect unless it's the daily bus ride you talk about. Now there is a true subsidy. Strangely, you seem to be cool with that particular handout. What's up with that?

    g


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
    To: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
    Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:16 AM
    Subject: [Vision2020] Smart Growth/ was Recall the city council


    >g writes:
    > 
    > "I know the tactic is to repeat the lie so often it
    > becomes accepted fact but, Moscow is, in fact,
    > subsidizing nothing."
    > 
    > 
    > I would say g is perpetuating a lie, or at least
    > misinformation as I think in order to lie you have to
    > be aware you are wrong, because, in fact, Moscow is
    > subsidizing something.  
    > 
    > By providing water and sewer services, Moscow is
    > saving Hawkins $4 million in development costs that
    > would be needed to build infrastructure to receive
    > water and dispose of sewer.  Whitman County agreed to
    > fund a $10 million dollar bond to build that
    > infrastructure and more.  Now Whitman County will save
    > $4 million by not having to pay to build the water and
    > sewer infrastructure.  I would say Moscow is
    > subsidizing Whitman County's growth, if not
    > necessarily Hawkins itself, because our
    > infrastructure, something paid for by Moscow tax and
    > rate payers, will now be stretched further, and
    > perhaps need upgrades sooner, if Hawkins uses Moscow's
    > water and sewer services.  
    > 
    > Whitman County, as far as I can tell, is not agreeing
    > to give Moscow anything.  Usually subsidies expect
    > something in return, so perhaps this isn't a strict
    > subsidy, but a give away.
    > 
    > Am I wrong in thinking the new city council could have
    > rezoned an area in Moscow for Hawkins, or a Super
    > Walmart?  Not that I'd want them to do it, but in
    > their negotiation with Hawkins, could that not have
    > been part of the negotiation, offering instead of
    > selling water and sewer, the ability to build in
    > Moscow?  If the new council really had Moscow's future
    > at heart, instead of merely development for
    > development's sake, regardless if that development
    > will directly compete with Moscow, it seems the
    > council had another alternative: rezone somewhere in
    > Moscow to suit what seems to be a need for more
    > shopping areas.
    > 
    > Keep in mind, though, that considering Walmart is the
    > kind of store that will close a smaller, older one to
    > build a Super Center, their intent is to garner more
    > market share.  They don't necessarily have the
    > community's interest at heart.  I think many owners of
    > these types of developments who live in another
    > community really are mostly interested in their bottom
    > line, not building community.
    > 
    > Case in point: the owner of the Palouse Empire Mall,
    > who does not live in Moscow, kicked Wheatland Express,
    > the bus from Pullman to Moscow, out of the mall.  They
    > no longer wanted the bus to stop at the mall because
    > they thought too many people were parking at the mall
    > to catch the bus there, regardless that their huge
    > parking lot is very rarely full.  I take the bus daily
    > and saw many people get off the bus at the mall, and
    > come back with full bags of groceries from Winco, and
    > other items.  I'm sure the owners of stores at the
    > mall are losing thousands of dollars of business a
    > year since the bus no longer stops there.  I'd say the
    > owner of mall isn't really concerned about building
    > community, on top of not caring if his tenants are
    > losing business.
    > 
    > Now the bus stops at Walmart, and most of those people
    > who get off there are shopping at Walmart.  If that
    > Walmart closes, I wonder if the bus will change its
    > stop to Hawkins, denying Moscow the business of
    > hundreds of people who come from Pullman.  I doubt the
    > bus would stop at both Hawkins and the PEM or another
    > store near there.
    > 
    > My point is, instead of subsidizing Whitman County's
    > growth by allowing another state to use our
    > infrastructure, the council should have had the smarts
    > to take public input on such a crucial issue to insure
    > that our resources are being put towards those who
    > really care about Moscow's future, rather than just
    > making a buck.
    > 
    > gclev
    > 
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