[Vision2020] Spec Jeremy Hall -- A Recap and a Request

Chasuk chasuk at gmail.com
Sat Mar 8 02:00:34 PST 2008


On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 1:05 AM, Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Fair enough. However, is it possible that Welborn didn't know there was a
> difference between Free Thinker and Freethinker, since, as you stated, there
> was no definition of that intended term on the flier? Is it not reasonable
> to think it was an open meeting designed to think and debate about the
> existence or non-existence of God?

Granted, as one can presume anything.

> Which was it, were they standing at attention, or was he belittling them? I
> don't think having soldiers standing at attention is belittling. If he was
> making them shine his shoes, or doing push-ups, that might come across to me
> as belittling. But if they were in standard protocol, I don't think it is
> abusive.

It isn't standard protocol to have soldiers stand at attention during
public meetings at which you are a guest.  "Standard protocol" is to
sit, and listen, and participate.  Abusing your rank by having your
host stand at attention would, at the very least, be a grave
personality flaw.

You are conflating things, and putting words in my mouth.  First, I
didn't use the words "belittle."  Second, making the three enlisted
stand at attention is certainly disruptive, which is what you were
seeking an example of, and I provided.


> What words did he use? Did he say, "If you ________ you will not get
> _______." What did he say precisely. And what exactly was he reacting to?
> What did Hall say at the meeting? Does Welborn have the authority to promote
> and deny promotion to Hall? Do we know that Hall was not doing something
> that would, in fact, prevent him from not unjustly getting a promotion?.

I wasn't there, Donovan.  Speculation is useless.  However, I would
point out that Welborn would not need to have OFFICIAL authority to
deny Hall's promotion to make the threat effective.

> Do you have a copy of the flier?

No, I don't.  I have posted THOUSANDS (no remote exaggeration) of
fliers for various meetings during my decade in the USAF.  I have been
responsible for the generation of some of these fliers.  They are
vetted extensively before they are finally allowed.  In ten years of
service, stationed all over the world, I've never seen, or been made
aware of, a flier or poster that contained anything inappropriate.  No
one wants to be the recipient of an unhappy phone call from a
superior.  The amounts of revisions and eyeballs involved in the
distribution of even the most trivial flier or poster is mindboggling.

> So we don't know if Wellborn had due cause to be concerned. These men could
> have been discussing ways to disrupt others in their religious pursuits,
> correct?

Correct.  However, no one is making this claim, as far as I am aware.
If this claim were tenable, the defense would have made it.

> If we don't know what was being said, or planned at the meeting, how can you
> claim he was acting not in the interests of the public or the military? Why
> didn't the other men just ignore him if rank was not a factor?

You can't just ignore rank.  Enlisted can frequently ignore rank
within enlisted circles, if it is done carefully, with a smile,
between respected peers or friends.  It rarely happens between
enlisted and commissioned.  The consequence is almost always ruinous
to a career, regardless of who was right or wrong.

> Have you in fact met Welborn? or are you just guessing and speculating on
> who Welborn is, and what he is like? Are you projecting experiences with
> unfit officers you have encountered in your experiences without actually
> learning what kind of person Welborn is as an individual?

I have never met Welborn.  No, I am not projecting.  Welborn might be
a saint.  I am stating merely that Welborn's alleged behavior
corresponds with the behavior of many officers in my experience, so it
would not surprise me if the allegations were true.

The point of creating a new thread and carefully posing my scenario
was not to prolong our engagement in empty hypothesizing.  At its
heart, I was trying to discover one thing.  That "one thing" is this:

If Welborn was the self-righteous #$%$ that Hall's account depicts,
would you still defend him?  You like being contrary, and deliberate
contrariness isn't something that appeals to me.  Are you defending
Welborn out of deliberate contrariness, or do you really find his
actions defensible, if they are as Hall alleges?



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