[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] in a better world ...
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Thu Jul 31 19:36:36 PDT 2008
OK. I guess I just don't see the threat. The only harm I see them
doing is convincing some people to believe some absurd stuff, at least
from my perspective. If it's mainly a theological fight, I'll stay
completely out of it. Neither side likely agrees with what I believe in
anyway.
Paul
Sue Hovey wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I'm with Bill and Keely on this one. And I appreciate that someone is
> willing to take on Doug Wilson. Locally, it's Keely and others;
> nationally it's Morris Dees and SPLC. Does their response play into
> Doug's hands as you say? Possibly, even probably; but silence is
> never an appropriate response to harm.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com> ; Bill London
> <mailto:london at moscow.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:51 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] in a better world ...
>
> Paul, I agree with you -- Wilson is not likely to "take over"
> Moscow, not by coup, not by open warfare, not by legislation. We
> do have a Constitution to prevent such things, no matter what his
> postmillennial dominion theology posits and no matter how elevated
> the putative "Bishop" of Moscow presumes himself to be.
>
> But here's where we part ways.
>
> I am a Christian. Wilson says he is; in fact, he is the most
> well-known pastor in town, has enormous influence over his poor
> flock, and is able to insinuate himself into politics, real estate
> and law in ways that seem disproportionate to his standing as a
> largely self-educated, self-accredited, self-made man of the
> cloth. Only God knows Wilson's heart, and while the Scriptures he
> and I claim to adhere to invite us to determine the genuineness of
> someone's faith by examining his or her fruit -- the good works,
> conduct, and results of ministry -- I would really rather not
> hazard a guess. It's enough for me to say that he's a bigot, an
> opportunist, a contemptible bully and a snake of a man. I think
> I've not been at all shy on making that point.
>
> So why should I care? There are loimg20080731070457941ts of bad
> men and women in Moscow, right? Of course there are. But no
> other man that I'm aware of represents the Gospel and person of
> Jesus Christ as horribly as does Doug Wilson, and that's what
> counts for me. You see, I believe that the most important
> question any of us will ever have to deal with is "what do we do
> with Christ ?" If nonbelievers come to think that Jesus Christ is
> as Doug portrays him, and that the Christian faith is nothing more
> than a bully stick to be wielded in one hand while hoisting fine
> wine and cigars in another, stiff middle finger raised to the
> community, they might shy away from trying to know about, and
> eventually coming to know, Him. Further, on their own, his
> comments are ugly, hurtful, and overwhelmingly not in accord with
> Scripture. He hurts people, Paul, and he does it in the name of
> Christ. As a Christ-disciple, I can't sit idly by.
>
> My father-in-law is very active in Rotary, and he occasionally
> grumps about "bad" Rotarians who don't follow the rules and don't
> represent Rotary in its classic, historical, civic-minded sense.
> And I guess I'd care if I were a Rotarian. But most of us agree
> that people who dishonor and misrepresent Rotary will have to
> answer to no one higher than its local Board, while people --
> pastors! -- who dishonor and misrepresent Christianity will have
> to answer to One higher still. Further, Doug Wilson delights in
> behaving badly, and even if every single soul in Moscow and
> throughout the country somehow knew that he was getting it wrong,
> way wrong, the content of what he says is damaging by its own
> measure.
>
> I try, and fail, and try again to reprimg20080731070457941esent
> the Lord Jesus well, to live out my verbal proclamation of the
> Gospel, and to extend grace and charity to those who disagree (did
> I mention that I often fail?). I don't always get it right, but
> it matters to me that no one would ever be turned away from Christ
> because I behaved like a total ass in His name. Quite often,
> people write me off list, or call me, or stop me on the street to
> ask me about the Gospel, or challenge me with something in the
> Bible, or thank me for speaking out. I think that's a good thing;
> I think I haven't made Christianity odious to anyone. But to sit
> back, like our brave male pastors here in town, and watch this man
> smear the Gospel of Christ with the dung of reckless contempt is
> not possible for me. I may someday be the only one, but I'll
> fight all the more.
>
> I love my town and its people, and I love Christ. I even love, by
> decision if not emotion, Doug Wilson. If he needed a kidney and I
> were a match, I'd offer it to him. But I'll be damned if I'm
> going to just cluck to myself that he's "being Doug again, darn
> it," and then go my merry way. I've devoted my adult life to
> justice, service, preaching, and speaking out for the Gospel.
> What message do I have to proclaim if I avoid the hard stuff, the
> stuff that presents the most odious challenge to the Gospel on the
> Palouse? My faith, as I've said before, requires that I be kind.
> It doesn't require that I be nice, and "nice" isn't called for here.
>
> Bad theology results in bad practice, and scores of Kirkers, past
> and present, know the sting of this shepherds heavy-handed,
> bitterly raised rod. They feel they have no voice, but I do. He
> may not be Hitler, or Jim Jones, or Caligula, or even Billy
> Sunday. He is what he is, though, and what he does and says and
> teaches and demonstrates is bad enough on its own, because it
> mocks and maligns the character of my Savior.
>
> It's worth the fight, every day, 'til the Kirk collapses and a
> remnant of Spirit-led believers rises up, or 'til I die. I really
> have no concern for the order in which those things happen, Paul,
> because at the end, I'll be able to stand before God and say I did
> the right thing. In this case, it ain't winning or losing that
> matters -- it's showing up for the battle.
>
> I appreciate the respect with which you disagree with me and hope
> you can understand,
>
> Keely
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:11:18 -0700
> > From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> > To: london at moscow.com
> > CC: kjajmix1 at msn.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] img20080731070457941in a better
> world ...
> >
> > Does he have a white cat that he pets while laughing maniacally?
> >
> > Seriously, how plausible do you think that scenario is? The
> worst I see
> > happening is we get a few more libertarians on the city council,
> a few
> > more stores become owned by members of the Kirk, and Trinity Fest
> > doubles in size.
> >
> > Keely is free to do her own blog. I even respect her for caring
> about
> > something enough to blog about it. I just think you're all going
> about
> > this the wrong way. You're making Doug Wilson into Dr. Evil or
> Ernst
> > Blofeld or whatever crazy mad villain you like best.
> >
> > I don't see the signs that should be worrying me here. I don't
> see a
> > compound where only Christ Church members can live in such a way
> that
> > they are kept away from their families. I don't see them
> stockpiling
> > guns and ammo and running drimg20080731070457941ills like the
> crazy Montanans do. I don't
> > see anybody forced to give up more than the 10% of their wages
> other
> > religions demand of their followers. I don't see anyone refusing
> > medical help for their children, dressing funny, or protesting
> > businesses. I don't even see any crazy beliefs that aren't any
> crazier
> > than any other Christian beliefs that stem from a too-literal
> > interpretation of the Bible.
> >
> > Whether or not they are misinterpreting the Bible, I have no
> idea. But
> > I think that most of us in Moscow are free from their evil clutches.
> >
> > Besides which, as I understand it, they are actually free to
> believe
> > whatever nonsense they're currently spouting.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Bill London wrote:
> > > I side with Keely on this issue.
> > > Doug Wilson has a political agenda. He wants to remake Moscow and
> > > this region into his own theocratic fiefdom.
> > > Exposing Wilson's agenda and his ideas is what will counter and
> > > ultimately derail his plan.
> > > BL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Rumelhart"
> > > <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > To: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> > > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 5:26 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] in a better world ...
> > >
> > >
> > >> I've said it before, but I'll go ahead and say it one more
> time. You're
> > >> giving him too much power. The proper response, in my
> opinion, is to
> > >> just point at him and laugh when he makes a comment like that
> in the
> > >> future.
> > >>
> > >> I respect what you're doing, but every blog post you make
> will just give
> > >> him credibility to those who already think he walks on water.
> > >>
> > >> Paul
> > >>
> > >> keely emerinemix wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Visionaires,
> > >>>
> > >>> Never would I have thought that I would live in a community
> whose most
> > >>> well-known and powerful pastor, one who claims to be a
> Trinitarian
> > >>> Christian and a Bible teacher, would behave in the hostile,
> hateful,
> > >>> and horrendous manner that Douglas Wilson of Christ Church has.
> > >>> During my six and a half years of living in Moscow and
> loving it, I
> > >>> have been beyond dismayed at his theology, teaching, and
> engagement
> > >>> with the community, and I've learned not to be surprised
> > >>> img20080726183626428at what comes from his pen or out of his
> mouth.
> > >>> But I find that he yet has the ability to shock me, owing
> more to his
> > >>> crass conduct than to my naivete, and this morning offers
> another
> > >>> example.
> > >>>
> > >>> In a column bashing Pastor Greg Boyd's new book on the
> idolatry of
> > >>> Christians in claiming the United States as a "Christian
> nation," and
> > >>> throwing themselves into politics in an attempt to make the
> kingdom of
> > >>> God right here, right now, Wilson complains that Boyd has no
> basis,
> > >>> then, for judging anything to be wrong. His serrated edge
> flashing,
> > >>> he says that, for example, if he told Boyd his church spent
> last night
> > >>> "lynching homos -- you shoulda been there!", Boyd couldn't
> reasonably
> > >>> object.
> > >>>
> > >>> Boyd won't, because Wilson's pontificating has, thankfully,
> a limited
> > >>> audience. But I can, and img20080731070457941I do. In fact,
> my 15-year-old son
> > >>> Jimg20080726183626428onah and I both responded to Wilson on
> his Blog
> > >>> and Mablog, and while my son responded to the church/state
> issue, I'm
> > >>> as proud of him as I am embarrassed, once again, by the man
> who would
> > >>> like to be thought of as the Bishop of the Palouse. I invite
> you to
> > >>> read my comments there. If not, let me state in the most
> concrete way
> > >>> that I can:
> > >>>
> > >>> For a pastor to make a point, any point, by using "lynching
> homos" as
> > >>> an example, one of hyperbole and excess, is despicable,
> particularly
> > >>> given the virulent homophobia Wilson has espoused. And for
> none of
> > >>> his readers to complain is, while predictable, most
> disappointing. In
> > >>> a perfect world, or even a mildly better one, other
> Christians would
> > >>> howl in protest, rebuking Wilson immediately and publicly.
> It ain't
> > >>> that kind of world, though. And, hesitant church leadership
> > >>> notwithstanding, it's frankly just as sad to me that many of
> you don't
> > >>> want to comment, object, or even know -- and wish I would
> just shut up
> > >>> about the whole thing.
> > >>>
> > >>> Sorry, but I can't do it. What I can and will do, however,
> is begin
> > >>> my own very publicized, very pointed blog devoted to
> defending the
> > >>> Gospel by correcting bad theology both within the Kirk and
> from other
> > >>> sources. I don't know what to call it yet, and I don't know
> how to
> > >>> design it, but I intend to never let up 'til the day I die . . .
> > >>>
> > >>> The stakes for our community are high, higher than most Moscow
> > >>> residents realize. But the stakes are even higher for the
> message of
> > >>> peace and reconciliation, justice and love, spoken and lived
> by the
> > >>> Lord Jesus Christ and sullied by Wilson, et al. If Christ means
> > >>> anything to me, I can certainly endure the scorn of my
> neighbors and
> > >>> the mocking of the boys at the Kirk by writing against them.
> I'll
> > >>> still write on Vision, and still write about Christ Church
> as relevant
> > >>> to the discussion, but the content of my blog will be
> theology, gender
> > >>> and peace-and-justice issues, and scathing critique of those
> who spew
> > >>> bigotry in the name of Christ.
> > >>>
> > >>> As a stay-at-home mom with a fairly useless BA from a
> quarter-century
> > >>> ago, I may be "just a housewife" to some at the Kirk -- but
> if I am a
> > >>> housewife, I am a thundering one, and I can't be silent.
> > >>>
> > >>> Keely
> > >>> img20080727165249934
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> > >>>
> > >>>
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> > >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> > >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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