[Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

Mon Jul 14 12:45:29 PDT 2008

Roger,

Until Bush and Cheney decided they wanted to do it, our country recognized that waterboarding was torture.  We are either a country that recognizes what torture is, like other civilized countries, that follows international law, or we are a rogue state.

Sunil

> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:13:41 -0700
> From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> Sunil
> We should have some standards.  Waterboarding looks more physiological than physical to me.  I dont have a problem with physiological. I don't think giving them a coup of coffee and saying "now please tell us what you know"would be vary effective. We something a little more stringent than that.  There will of course be alot of miss-information to sort through.  One never knows for sure what one would due if they were in those circumstances. I would like to think that I would give them a lot of miss-information
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:20:06 -0700
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> > 
> > Roger,
> > 
> > The problem with your position, 'I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture him.
> > 
> > If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at all.
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > > Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700
> > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > To: sslund_2007 at verizon.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > > 
> > > Saundra
> > > I didn't say it was not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being dunked. As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: "Saundra Lund" sslund_2007 at verizon.net
> > > Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700
> > > To: "'lfalen'" lfalen at turbonet.com, 	vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > > 
> > > > In part, Roger wrote:
> > > > "I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it is nothing more
> > > > than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is."
> > > > 
> > > > You've already gotten great info, so now you know what waterboarding is.  I
> > > > thought every adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's
> > > > certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . I
> > > > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as citizens have
> > > > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness sake.
> > > > 
> > > > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to you that both waterboarding and
> > > > repeated dunking *are* torture.  There are many, many, many documented
> > > > instances where it's undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an
> > > > "enhanced interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple.  As is
> > > > waterboarding.  Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are
> > > > well-recognized and nothing new at all.  Due to the perversion of some human
> > > > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is torture is
> > > > torture.
> > > > 
> > > > Should you have any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the
> > > > Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the
> > > > atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War.  The military junta called the
> > > > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and it undoubtedly qualifies as
> > > > torture by any sane definition of the word.
> > > > 
> > > > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form your own
> > > > firsthand opinion, but on second thought:  DON'T!!!  It is dangerous.
> > > > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and people DIE while
> > > > being repeatedly dunked.  Instead, read the accounts of those who have
> > > > experienced waterboarding firsthand.  While it's not nearly the same
> > > > experience as those who have had it done For Real, read what Christopher
> > > > Hitchens has to say.  Read the accounts of real survivors.
> > > > 
> > > > I know you say you are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you
> > > > would define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head
> > > > repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least for
> > > > the "interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as torture?
> > > > 
> > > > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need to have a discussion about whether
> > > > such acts at the behest of ***our*** government constitute torture  :-(
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Saundra Lund
> > > > Moscow, ID
> > > > 
> > > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> > > > nothing.
> > > > ~ Edmund Burke
> > > > 
> > > > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus
> > > > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
> > > > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> > > > author.*****
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> > > > On Behalf Of lfalen
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 AM
> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > > > 
> > > > Nick 
> > > > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am opposed to
> > > > torture. The problem is in what constitutes torture.
> > > > 
> > > > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the arms,  and breaking bones are
> > > > clearly torture. When I was is the Army there was a war game exercise in
> > > > which dogs from the US Army Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.
> > > > One First Lt. broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this
> > > > constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of
> > > > course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it
> > > > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is. I would
> > > > defer to John McCain on this.
> > > > I have no doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.
> > > > Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I agree
> > > > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. There needs to
> > > > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news reports on the stories of
> > > > detainees being tortured and their religion being insulted; I would take
> > > > this with a grain of salt. I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the
> > > > reverse. The reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The
> > > > detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards show
> > > > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are brought up on
> > > > charges. The same goes for anything approaching torture. There were of
> > > > course a few detainees related to 9/11 that were interrogated heavily.
> > > > whether any of it constitutes torture is debateable.
> > > > In  any case there has been no further 9/11's
> > > > Roger
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
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