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Roger,<br><br>Until Bush and Cheney decided they wanted to do it, our country recognized that waterboarding was torture. We are either a country that recognizes what torture is, like other civilized countries, that follows international law, or we are a rogue state.<br><br>Sunil<br><br>> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:13:41 -0700<br>> From: lfalen@turbonet.com<br>> To: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> <br>> Sunil<br>> We should have some standards. Waterboarding looks more physiological than physical to me. I dont have a problem with physiological. I don't think giving them a coup of coffee and saying "now please tell us what you know"would be vary effective. We something a little more stringent than that. There will of course be alot of miss-information to sort through. One never knows for sure what one would due if they were in those circumstances. I would like to think that I would give them a lot of miss-information<br>> Roger<br>> -----Original message-----<br>> From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam@hotmail.com<br>> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:20:06 -0700<br>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> <br>> > <br>> > Roger,<br>> > <br>> > The problem with your position, 'I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture him.<br>> > <br>> > If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at all.<br>> > <br>> > Sunil<br>> > <br>> > > Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700<br>> > > From: lfalen@turbonet.com<br>> > > To: sslund_2007@verizon.net; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> > > <br>> > > Saundra<br>> > > I didn't say it was not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being dunked. As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.<br>> > > Roger<br>> > > -----Original message-----<br>> > > From: "Saundra Lund" sslund_2007@verizon.net<br>> > > Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700<br>> > > To: "'lfalen'" lfalen@turbonet.com, vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> > > <br>> > > > In part, Roger wrote:<br>> > > > "I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it is nothing more<br>> > > > than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is."<br>> > > > <br>> > > > You've already gotten great info, so now you know what waterboarding is. I<br>> > > > thought every adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's<br>> > > > certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . I<br>> > > > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as citizens have<br>> > > > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness sake.<br>> > > > <br>> > > > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to you that both waterboarding and<br>> > > > repeated dunking *are* torture. There are many, many, many documented<br>> > > > instances where it's undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an<br>> > > > "enhanced interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple. As is<br>> > > > waterboarding. Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are<br>> > > > well-recognized and nothing new at all. Due to the perversion of some human<br>> > > > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is torture is<br>> > > > torture.<br>> > > > <br>> > > > Should you have any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the<br>> > > > Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the<br>> > > > atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War. The military junta called the<br>> > > > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and it undoubtedly qualifies as<br>> > > > torture by any sane definition of the word.<br>> > > > <br>> > > > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form your own<br>> > > > firsthand opinion, but on second thought: DON'T!!! It is dangerous.<br>> > > > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and people DIE while<br>> > > > being repeatedly dunked. Instead, read the accounts of those who have<br>> > > > experienced waterboarding firsthand. While it's not nearly the same<br>> > > > experience as those who have had it done For Real, read what Christopher<br>> > > > Hitchens has to say. Read the accounts of real survivors.<br>> > > > <br>> > > > I know you say you are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you<br>> > > > would define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head<br>> > > > repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least for<br>> > > > the "interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as torture?<br>> > > > <br>> > > > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need to have a discussion about whether<br>> > > > such acts at the behest of ***our*** government constitute torture :-(<br>> > > > <br>> > > > <br>> > > > Saundra Lund<br>> > > > Moscow, ID<br>> > > > <br>> > > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do<br>> > > > nothing.<br>> > > > ~ Edmund Burke<br>> > > > <br>> > > > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus<br>> > > > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside<br>> > > > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<br>> > > > author.*****<br>> > > > <br>> > > > <br>> > > > -----Original Message-----<br>> > > > From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<br>> > > > On Behalf Of lfalen<br>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 AM<br>> > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > > Subject: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> > > > <br>> > > > Nick <br>> > > > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am opposed to<br>> > > > torture. The problem is in what constitutes torture.<br>> > > > <br>> > > > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the arms, and breaking bones are<br>> > > > clearly torture. When I was is the Army there was a war game exercise in<br>> > > > which dogs from the US Army Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.<br>> > > > One First Lt. broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this<br>> > > > constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of<br>> > > > course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it<br>> > > > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is. I would<br>> > > > defer to John McCain on this.<br>> > > > I have no doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.<br>> > > > Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I agree<br>> > > > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. There needs to<br>> > > > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news reports on the stories of<br>> > > > detainees being tortured and their religion being insulted; I would take<br>> > > > this with a grain of salt. I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the<br>> > > > reverse. The reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The<br>> > > > detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards show<br>> > > > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are brought up on<br>> > > > charges. The same goes for anything approaching torture. There were of<br>> > > > course a few detainees related to 9/11 that were interrogated heavily.<br>> > > > whether any of it constitutes torture is debateable.<br>> > > > In any case there has been no further 9/11's<br>> > > > Roger<br>> > > > <br>> > > > <br>> > > <br>> > > =======================================================<br>> > > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > =======================================================<br>> > <br></body>
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