[Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

Sat Jul 12 18:52:58 PDT 2008

I'm trying to figure out if Donovan's post contains a typo.  It basically says that anyone who says he or she would never commit a war crime by torturing another human being is 
-a liar or 
-a heartless bastard.

He could not have meant that, since in this view war criminals who torture have hearts, while those who would not are heartless bastards.

No, must be a typo.  Donovan could not be saying that principled, law-abiding people are heartless bastards, could he?

Sunil

Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:37:38 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com; london at moscow.com

I think anyone that says they would NEVER EVER torture someone under any possible circumstances under any definition of the term is either a liar or a heartless bastard. 

I don't think the US Government should do anything to anyone they don't think would be justified for the enemy to do to our soldiers or citizens under the same circumstances. 

Best Regards,

Donovan

--- On Thu, 7/10/08, Bill London <london at moscow.com> wrote:

From: Bill London <london at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 5:09 PM

In addition, is it actually true that torture results in accurate information?
BL

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Sunil Ramalingam 
To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

Roger,

The problem with your position, 'I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture him.

If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at all.

Sunil

> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700
> From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> To: sslund_2007 at verizon.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> Saundra
> I didn't say it was not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being dunked.
 As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Saundra Lund" sslund_2007 at verizon.net
> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700
> To: "'lfalen'" lfalen at turbonet.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> > In part, Roger wrote:
> > "I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it is nothing more
> > than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is."
> > 
> > You've already gotten great info, so now you know what waterboarding is. I
> > thought every adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's
> > certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . I
> > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as citizens have
> > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness
 sake.
> > 
> > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to you that both waterboarding and
> > repeated dunking *are* torture. There are many, many, many documented
> > instances where it's undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an
> > "enhanced interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple. As is
> > waterboarding. Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are
> > well-recognized and nothing new at all. Due to the perversion of some human
> > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is torture is
> > torture.
> > 
> > Should you have any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the
> > Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the
> > atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War. The military junta called the
> > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and
 it undoubtedly qualifies as
> > torture by any sane definition of the word.
> > 
> > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form your own
> > firsthand opinion, but on second thought: DON'T!!! It is dangerous.
> > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and people DIE while
> > being repeatedly dunked. Instead, read the accounts of those who have
> > experienced waterboarding firsthand. While it's not nearly the same
> > experience as those who have had it done For Real, read what Christopher
> > Hitchens has to say. Read the accounts of real survivors.
> > 
> > I know you say you are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you
> > would define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head
> > repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least for
> > the
 "interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as torture?
> > 
> > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need to have a discussion about whether
> > such acts at the behest of ***our*** government constitute torture :-(
> > 
> > 
> > Saundra Lund
> > Moscow, ID
> > 
> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> > nothing.
> > ~ Edmund Burke
> > 
> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus
> > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
> > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> > author.*****
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> > On Behalf
 Of lfalen
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 AM
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > 
> > Nick 
> > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am opposed to
> > torture. The problem is in what constitutes torture.
> > 
> > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the arms, and breaking bones are
> > clearly torture. When I was is the Army there was a war game exercise in
> > which dogs from the US Army Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.
> > One First Lt. broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this
> > constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of
> > course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it
> > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it
 is. I would
> > defer to John McCain on this.
> > I have no doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.
> > Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I agree
> > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. There needs to
> > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news reports on the stories of
> > detainees being tortured and their religion being insulted; I would take
> > this with a grain of salt. I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the
> > reverse. The reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The
> > detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards show
> > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are brought up on
> > charges. The same goes for anything approaching torture. There were of
> > course a few detainees related
 to 9/11 that were interrogated heavily.
> > whether any of it constitutes torture is debateable.
> > In any case there has been no further 9/11's
> > Roger
> > 
> > 
> 
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