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I'm trying to figure out if Donovan's post contains a typo. It basically says that anyone who says he or she would never commit a war crime by torturing another human being is <br>-a liar or <br>-a heartless bastard.<br><br>He could not have meant that, since in this view war criminals who torture have hearts, while those who would not are heartless bastards.<br><br>No, must be a typo. Donovan could not be saying that principled, law-abiding people are heartless bastards, could he?<br><br>Sunil<br><br><hr>Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:37:38 -0700<br>From: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>To: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com; london@moscow.com<br><br><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign="top">I think anyone that says they would NEVER EVER torture someone under any possible circumstances under any definition of the term is either a liar or a heartless bastard. <BR>
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I don't think the US Government should do anything to anyone they don't think would be justified for the enemy to do to our soldiers or citizens under the same circumstances. <BR>
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Best Regards,<BR>
<BR>
Donovan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<br><br>--- On <b>Thu, 7/10/08, Bill London <i><london@moscow.com></i></b> wrote:<br><BR>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">From: Bill London <london@moscow.com><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>To: "Sunil <span>Ramalingam</span>" <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>, vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 5:09 PM<br><br>
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<div><font face="Arial">In addition, is it actually true that torture results in accurate information?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">BL</font></div>
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<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b> <a title="sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow">Sunil Ramalingam</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow">vision2020@moscow.com</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:20 PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.</div>
<div><br></div>Roger,<br><br>The problem with your position, 'I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture him.<br><br>If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at all.<br><br>Sunil<br><br>> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700<br>> From: lfalen@turbonet.com<br>> To: sslund_2007@verizon.net; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> <br>> Saundra<br>> I didn't say it was not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being dunked.
As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.<br>> Roger<br>> -----Original message-----<br>> From: "Saundra Lund" sslund_2007@verizon.net<br>> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700<br>> To: "'lfalen'" lfalen@turbonet.com, vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> <br>> > In part, Roger wrote:<br>> > "I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it is nothing more<br>> > than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is."<br>> > <br>> > You've already gotten great info, so now you know what waterboarding is. I<br>> > thought every adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's<br>> > certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . I<br>> > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as citizens have<br>> > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness
sake.<br>> > <br>> > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to you that both waterboarding and<br>> > repeated dunking *are* torture. There are many, many, many documented<br>> > instances where it's undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an<br>> > "enhanced interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple. As is<br>> > waterboarding. Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are<br>> > well-recognized and nothing new at all. Due to the perversion of some human<br>> > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is torture is<br>> > torture.<br>> > <br>> > Should you have any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the<br>> > Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the<br>> > atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War. The military junta called the<br>> > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and
it undoubtedly qualifies as<br>> > torture by any sane definition of the word.<br>> > <br>> > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form your own<br>> > firsthand opinion, but on second thought: DON'T!!! It is dangerous.<br>> > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and people DIE while<br>> > being repeatedly dunked. Instead, read the accounts of those who have<br>> > experienced waterboarding firsthand. While it's not nearly the same<br>> > experience as those who have had it done For Real, read what Christopher<br>> > Hitchens has to say. Read the accounts of real survivors.<br>> > <br>> > I know you say you are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you<br>> > would define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head<br>> > repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least for<br>> > the
"interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as torture?<br>> > <br>> > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need to have a discussion about whether<br>> > such acts at the behest of ***our*** government constitute torture :-(<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Saundra Lund<br>> > Moscow, ID<br>> > <br>> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do<br>> > nothing.<br>> > ~ Edmund Burke<br>> > <br>> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus<br>> > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside<br>> > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<br>> > author.*****<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > -----Original Message-----<br>> > From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<br>> > On Behalf
Of lfalen<br>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 AM<br>> > To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> > <br>> > Nick <br>> > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am opposed to<br>> > torture. The problem is in what constitutes torture.<br>> > <br>> > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the arms, and breaking bones are<br>> > clearly torture. When I was is the Army there was a war game exercise in<br>> > which dogs from the US Army Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.<br>> > One First Lt. broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this<br>> > constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of<br>> > course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it<br>> > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it
is. I would<br>> > defer to John McCain on this.<br>> > I have no doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.<br>> > Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I agree<br>> > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. There needs to<br>> > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news reports on the stories of<br>> > detainees being tortured and their religion being insulted; I would take<br>> > this with a grain of salt. I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the<br>> > reverse. The reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The<br>> > detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards show<br>> > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are brought up on<br>> > charges. The same goes for anything approaching torture. There were of<br>> > course a few detainees related
to 9/11 that were interrogated heavily.<br>> > whether any of it constitutes torture is debateable.<br>> > In any case there has been no further 9/11's<br>> > Roger<br>> > <br>> > <br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br>
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<BR>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> http://www.fsr.net <br> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================</blockquote></div><pre>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> http://www.fsr.net <br> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================</pre></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>
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