[Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

Thu Jul 10 16:36:40 PDT 2008

I'm afraid I might have contributed to the "dunking as torture" thought, quite unintentionally.  What I meant to diffuse the other day was the idea that dunking was just rowdy behavior at a pool party, that such dunking was synonymous with waterboarding and therefore couldn't be such a bad deal, and that waterboarding was somehow an acceptable way of getting information out of people.

I hate being grabbed at a pool party and dunked under water, but I don't call that torture.  The torturous dunking of a terrorism suspect is altogether different, and neither it nor waterboarding should ever be countenanced by civilized nations.  

Whew.

Keely

From: whayman at roadrunner.com
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:19:55 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

Sunil,

Not to mention that torture has not been shown to be 
altogether accurate in extracting information. Also, to equate (basically) 
dunking as an interrogation technique with kids at the local pond or pool ("Tell 
me where the Snickers are!") is to categorically misunderstand or misrepresent 
the phenomenon.

Warren Hayman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Sunil Ramalingam 
  To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:20 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts 
  on terrorists and torture.

Roger,

The problem with your position, 'I think some 
  enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that 
  saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He 
  could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture 
  him.

If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at 
  all.

Sunil

> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700
> 
  From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> To: sslund_2007 at verizon.net; 
  vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on 
  terrorists and torture.
> 
> Saundra
> I didn't say it was 
  not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It 
  looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced 
  interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves 
  lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being 
  dunked. As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.
> 
  Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Saundra Lund" 
  sslund_2007 at verizon.net
> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700
> 
  To: "'lfalen'" lfalen at turbonet.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: RE: 
  [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> 
> > In 
  part, Roger wrote:
> > "I am not sure what all water boarding 
  consists of. If it is nothing more
> > than repeated dunking, I am 
  not sure that it is."
> > 
> > You've already gotten great 
  info, so now you know what waterboarding is. I
> > thought every 
  adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's
> > 
  certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . 
  I
> > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as 
  citizens have
> > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness 
  sake.
> > 
> > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to 
  you that both waterboarding and
> > repeated dunking *are* torture. 
  There are many, many, many documented
> > instances where it's 
  undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an
> > "enhanced 
  interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple. As is
> > 
  waterboarding. Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are
> 
  > well-recognized and nothing new at all. Due to the perversion of some 
  human
> > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is 
  torture is
> > torture.
> > 
> > Should you have 
  any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the
> > 
  Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the
> 
  > atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War. The military junta called 
  the
> > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and it undoubtedly 
  qualifies as
> > torture by any sane definition of the word.
> 
  > 
> > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form 
  your own
> > firsthand opinion, but on second thought: DON'T!!! It is 
  dangerous.
> > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and 
  people DIE while
> > being repeatedly dunked. Instead, read the 
  accounts of those who have
> > experienced waterboarding firsthand. 
  While it's not nearly the same
> > experience as those who have had 
  it done For Real, read what Christopher
> > Hitchens has to say. Read 
  the accounts of real survivors.
> > 
> > I know you say you 
  are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you
> > would 
  define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head
> > 
  repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least 
  for
> > the "interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as 
  torture?
> > 
> > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need 
  to have a discussion about whether
> > such acts at the behest of 
  ***our*** government constitute torture :-(
> > 
> > 

> > Saundra Lund
> > Moscow, ID
> > 
> > 
  The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to 
  do
> > nothing.
> > ~ Edmund Burke
> > 
> 
  > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life 
  plus
> > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or 
  reproduce outside
> > the Vision 2020 forum without the express 
  written permission of the
> > author.*****
> > 
> > 

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: 
  vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> 
  > On Behalf Of lfalen
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 
  AM
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: [Vision2020] 
  Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.
> > 
> > Nick 

> > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am 
  opposed to
> > torture. The problem is in what constitutes 
  torture.
> > 
> > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the 
  arms, and breaking bones are
> > clearly torture. When I was is the 
  Army there was a war game exercise in
> > which dogs from the US Army 
  Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.
> > One First Lt. 
  broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this
> > 
  constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of
> 
  > course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If 
  it
> > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it 
  is. I would
> > defer to John McCain on this.
> > I have no 
  doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.
> > 
  Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I 
  agree
> > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. 
  There needs to
> > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news 
  reports on the stories of
> > detainees being tortured and their 
  religion being insulted; I would take
> > this with a grain of salt. 
  I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the
> > reverse. The 
  reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The
> > 
  detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards 
  show
> > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are 
  brought up on
> > charges. The same goes for anything approaching 
  torture. There were of
> > course a few detainees related to 9/11 
  that were interrogated heavily.
> > whether any of it constitutes 
  torture is debateable.
> > In any case there has been no further 
  9/11's
> > Roger
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
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