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I'm afraid I might have contributed to the "dunking as torture" thought, quite unintentionally. What I meant to diffuse the other day was the idea that dunking was just rowdy behavior at a pool party, that such dunking was synonymous with waterboarding and therefore couldn't be such a bad deal, and that waterboarding was somehow an acceptable way of getting information out of people.<br><br>I hate being grabbed at a pool party and dunked under water, but I don't call that torture. The torturous dunking of a terrorism suspect is altogether different, and neither it nor waterboarding should ever be countenanced by civilized nations. <br><br>Whew.<br><br>Keely<br><br><br><br><br><hr>From: whayman@roadrunner.com<br>To: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:19:55 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br><br>
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<div><font face="Arial">Sunil,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Not to mention that torture has not been shown to be
altogether accurate in extracting information. Also, to equate (basically)
dunking as an interrogation technique with kids at the local pond or pool ("Tell
me where the Snickers are!") is to categorically misunderstand or misrepresent
the phenomenon.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">Warren Hayman</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Sunil Ramalingam</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:20
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts
on terrorists and torture.</div>
<div><br></div>Roger,<br><br>The problem with your position, 'I think some
enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that
saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He
could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture
him.<br><br>If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at
all.<br><br>Sunil<br><br>> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700<br>>
From: lfalen@turbonet.com<br>> To: sslund_2007@verizon.net;
vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on
terrorists and torture.<br>> <br>> Saundra<br>> I didn't say it was
not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It
looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced
interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves
lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being
dunked. As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.<br>>
Roger<br>> -----Original message-----<br>> From: "Saundra Lund"
sslund_2007@verizon.net<br>> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700<br>>
To: "'lfalen'" lfalen@turbonet.com, vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: RE:
[Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> <br>> > In
part, Roger wrote:<br>> > "I am not sure what all water boarding
consists of. If it is nothing more<br>> > than repeated dunking, I am
not sure that it is."<br>> > <br>> > You've already gotten great
info, so now you know what waterboarding is. I<br>> > thought every
adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's<br>> >
certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . .
I<br>> > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as
citizens have<br>> > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness
sake.<br>> > <br>> > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to
you that both waterboarding and<br>> > repeated dunking *are* torture.
There are many, many, many documented<br>> > instances where it's
undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an<br>> > "enhanced
interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple. As is<br>> >
waterboarding. Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are<br>>
> well-recognized and nothing new at all. Due to the perversion of some
human<br>> > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is
torture is<br>> > torture.<br>> > <br>> > Should you have
any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the<br>> >
Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the<br>>
> atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War. The military junta called
the<br>> > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and it undoubtedly
qualifies as<br>> > torture by any sane definition of the word.<br>>
> <br>> > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form
your own<br>> > firsthand opinion, but on second thought: DON'T!!! It is
dangerous.<br>> > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and
people DIE while<br>> > being repeatedly dunked. Instead, read the
accounts of those who have<br>> > experienced waterboarding firsthand.
While it's not nearly the same<br>> > experience as those who have had
it done For Real, read what Christopher<br>> > Hitchens has to say. Read
the accounts of real survivors.<br>> > <br>> > I know you say you
are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you<br>> > would
define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head<br>> >
repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least
for<br>> > the "interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as
torture?<br>> > <br>> > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need
to have a discussion about whether<br>> > such acts at the behest of
***our*** government constitute torture :-(<br>> > <br>> >
<br>> > Saundra Lund<br>> > Moscow, ID<br>> > <br>> >
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to
do<br>> > nothing.<br>> > ~ Edmund Burke<br>> > <br>>
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life
plus<br>> > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
reproduce outside<br>> > the Vision 2020 forum without the express
written permission of the<br>> > author.*****<br>> > <br>> >
<br>> > -----Original Message-----<br>> > From:
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<br>>
> On Behalf Of lfalen<br>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04
AM<br>> > To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > Subject: [Vision2020]
Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<br>> > <br>> > Nick
<br>> > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am
opposed to<br>> > torture. The problem is in what constitutes
torture.<br>> > <br>> > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the
arms, and breaking bones are<br>> > clearly torture. When I was is the
Army there was a war game exercise in<br>> > which dogs from the US Army
Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.<br>> > One First Lt.
broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this<br>> >
constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of<br>>
> course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If
it<br>> > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it
is. I would<br>> > defer to John McCain on this.<br>> > I have no
doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.<br>> >
Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I
agree<br>> > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony.
There needs to<br>> > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news
reports on the stories of<br>> > detainees being tortured and their
religion being insulted; I would take<br>> > this with a grain of salt.
I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the<br>> > reverse. The
reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The<br>> >
detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards
show<br>> > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are
brought up on<br>> > charges. The same goes for anything approaching
torture. There were of<br>> > course a few detainees related to 9/11
that were interrogated heavily.<br>> > whether any of it constitutes
torture is debateable.<br>> > In any case there has been no further
9/11's<br>> > Roger<br>> > <br>> > <br>> <br>>
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