[Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

[Saundra Lund]

In part, Roger wrote:
"I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it is nothing more
than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is."

You've already gotten great info, so now you know what waterboarding is.  I
thought every adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's
certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . I
mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as citizens have
a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness sake.

And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to you that both waterboarding and
repeated dunking *are* torture.  There are many, many, many documented
instances where it's undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an
"enhanced interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple.  As is
waterboarding.  Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are
well-recognized and nothing new at all.  Due to the perversion of some human
minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is torture is
torture.

Should you have any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the
Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the
atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War.  The military junta called the
technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and it undoubtedly qualifies as
torture by any sane definition of the word.

I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form your own
firsthand opinion, but on second thought:  DON'T!!!  It is dangerous.
People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and people DIE while
being repeatedly dunked.  Instead, read the accounts of those who have
experienced waterboarding firsthand.  While it's not nearly the same
experience as those who have had it done For Real, read what Christopher
Hitchens has to say.  Read the accounts of real survivors.

I know you say you are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you
would define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head
repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least for
the "interrogators" -- just short of death don’t qualify as torture?

And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need to have a discussion about whether
such acts at the behest of ***our*** government constitute torture  :-(


Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
~ Edmund Burke

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-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of lfalen
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.

Nick 
This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am opposed to
torture. The problem is in what constitutes torture.

Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the arms,  and breaking bones are
clearly torture. When I was is the Army there was a war game exercise in
which dogs from the US Army Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.
One First Lt. broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this
constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of
course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it
is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is. I would
defer to John McCain on this.
I have no doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.
Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I agree
would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. There needs to
be some sort of secondary verification. As to news reports on the stories of
detainees being tortured and their religion being insulted; I would take
this with a grain of salt. I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the
reverse. The reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The
detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards show
any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are brought up on
charges. The same goes for anything approaching torture. There were of
course a few detainees related to 9/11 that were interrogated heavily.
whether any of it constitutes torture is debateable.
In  any case there has been no further 9/11's
Roger