[Vision2020] Contractors

Tue Jan 29 17:10:28 PST 2008

Hi Again Matt and Other Interested Visionaries:

Thanks for the response - I enjoy the conversation.

In reading your response, I'm worried that I may have inadvertently given
the impression with my second to the last paragraph that I was somehow
questioning any eligibility criteria the City & PCEI have regarding
eligibility for assistance from Snow Patrol volunteers.  Please allow me to
clarify I absolutely didn't mean to give that impression at all.

This was my last paragraph:

"However, even if I had didn't have a crappy back, I don't think I'd be too
interested in spending too much time volunteering to clear sidewalks for
those able-but-unwilling to do the job themselves to help keep the rest of
us safe, you know?  Nor am I very interested in having my tax dollars go to
clear the sidewalks of those able-but-unwilling to do the job themselves to
help keep the rest of us safe."

I apologize for being unclear:  those thoughts had absolutely nothing to do
with our wonderful volunteer Snow Patrol Program.

Rather, that paragraph was meant to address the kind of generic attitude
I've heard and read that, "Yeah, it's important that sidewalks be cleared,
but we shouldn't fine non-elderly, non-differently-abled property owners who
choose not to clear the sidewalks they're responsible for - let's have
volunteers do it or find some other solution."

I think the idea of "neighbors helping neighbors" some have mentioned is
great!  Those situations aren't a problem because someone is willingly
clearing those sidewalks.

But, that doesn't change the fact that too many sidewalks aren't being
cleared in a timely matter, and it's a public safety issue.  For those who
don't believe me, talk to kids who walk to school.  Talk to our elderly,
many of whom become shut-in when there's snow on the ground because they're
- rightly --  afraid of falling on uncleared sidewalks.  Take to our
differently-abled community members, and to those who work with them.  Talk
to people who still walk to work even in the winter, or to the college
students who walk to campus.  Listen to people like Janesta and Bev and
myself and all the others who don't turn a blind eye or a deaf ear to the
problem.  There is a public safety issue that's problem during the winter
months year after year after year.

Clearly, I'm not directing my rant <g> at you, Matt, because you have
admirably become part of the solution for the elderly and differently-abled
property owners who aren't able to clear their sidewalks.  Again, my sincere
gratitude to you and to the others who are helping!

I'm intrigued with the idea of having youth (and adults, too, who aren't
gainfully employed) on probation clear sidewalks.  I don't know how feasible
it is, but I'm intrigued.

However, even if something like that is possible, I think the property owner
should bear the cost, and those costs could go back into the tax coffers.
If those on probation do the work, there are still costs associated with
such an effort.  Why should 10% (or whatever) of irresponsible
able-but-unwilling property owners get a free service from the rest of the
tax payers?  I definitely don't think we want to get into the position of
rewarding those who choose to disregard public safety, be irresponsible
property owners, and flout the law, do you?

I'm open-minded on the topic, but other than having some process in place
for clearing the public sidewalks property owners choose not to clear and
billing the property owner for the cost, I've not seen any workable
suggestions yet.  I believe this to be an important public safety issue that
deserves to have a solution precisely because we live in an area where
there's snow in the winter.

I repeat:  other communities in snow areas long ago came up with workable
solutions to the problem - why can't Moscow?

JMHO . . . Again,

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

From: Matt Decker [mailto:mattd2107 at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 3:00 PM
To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Contractors

Saundra,

Fair enough. i understand your point and frustration. I know we can all do
more to help each other and pay attention to others, such as car placement.
I go through cars being in my snow plowing way, every morning. 

I guess I am one that would rather help out first then, if that doesnt solve
it resort to 882-cops. This is why I am volunteering my time through the
PCEI to help others that are unable. I too, just like J Ford helps the
neighbors out when needed, just like I assume or hope all of us on the V do.

I am not sure how PCEI filters it's clients to insure an "unable" person,
but believe me if I ever find out I am volunteering time to an able bodied
person, I'm outta there.

Take care
Matt

  _____  

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:15:18 -0800
From: sslund_2007 at verizon.net
To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

Hi Matt,

Well, I'm not sure I can agree with you that "we all want clean clear
streets."  I absolutely agree with you, but have you driven around town
lately?  As today's City Press Release posted here on the Viz  highlights,
there are more than a few people who haven't bothered to move their vehicles
so plows can do the job.  Perhaps some are broken down, in which case they
shouldn't be parked on public streets.  Perhaps some owners are out of town,
in which case their vehicles shouldn't be left parked on public streets,
particularly in winter.

Whatever the various reasons folks have left their cars parked on public
streets for extended periods, it's created a public safety issue for all of
us attempting to get around whether by walking, biking, or driving.

The same public safety issues arises when property owners fail to clear
their sidewalks.  I'm with you in that I don't' think CdA's 9 AM deadline is
realistic -- what if you shovel at 7 AM before leaving for work and another
2" fall after you've left for work?

However, I absolutely agree with Janesta and others that we need to do more
to address the many, many situations of those who aren't clearing their
sidewalks in a timely manner.

I am proud to live in a community that has come up with a solution for the
elderly and differently-abled who aren't able to clear their own sidewalks,
but what about all the property owners who just don't seem to give a darn,
putting the safety of the rest of us at risk?

Other communities have come up with workable solutions - why can't we?  The
current system really doesn't work well, as those of us (including school
children) who are pedestrians in winter are well aware of.

I have a crappy back and therefore can't help out with the City of Moscow's
& PCEI's wonderful Snow Patrol (http://www.pcei.org/VolunteerSnow.htm)  -
but kudos to you and others who are helping!

However, even if I had didn't have a crappy back, I don't think I'd be too
interested in spending too much time volunteering to clear sidewalks for
those able-but-unwilling to do the job themselves to help keep the rest of
us safe, you know?  Nor am I very interested in having my tax dollars go to
clear the sidewalks of those able-but-unwilling to do the job themselves to
help keep the rest of us safe.

Thus, it seems to me an infinitely reasonable solution is to have a
mechanism in place to get the flippin' job done in a timely manner and then
bill the property owner.

JMHO,

Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Matt Decker
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 1:41 PM
To: J Ford; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

J,

Try having a conversation w/o harping on someone you disagree with for once
will ya.

 To fine people for not being done by 9 am regardless, to me, is too harsh
of a rule. There are too many what ifs. How can you justify making a cop or
firefighter get paid help because he/she is out protecting YOU. Or how can
you have it in your heart to make the guy clearing the streets and sidewalks
of the snow, that the cops have to pay for, pay an extra $500 a month. 

Look we all want clean clear streets. In my opinion fining the bajesus out
of those who cannot do it is not the right solution. So let's quite the
belittling and come to a solution, if this current one is not working for
you.

Maybe juveniles on probation is a good start.

Or you can donate your time to help clean some these sidewalks. Talk to Kit
Craine for info. She got me started on it.

Matt

  _____  

From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:01:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

Ok, so there is State-wide example precedent for this type of thing.  I like
the sound of your example, Janesta.  Wonder if ANYone in the City is willing
to comment or even DO something positive to resolve the issue......

Matt - whatever.  

When you own property, being out of town or being at work still means its up
to you, the property owner responsible party, to make sure things get done.
I suppose if someone working on your property slips and breaks an arm while
you're gone due to your not making a needed repair, your "not responsible as
I was at work or out of town" defense would work?  Nope.  

There are a lot of "out-of-town" owners with property in Moscow - they hire
property managers who are supposed to - ahem - "manage" the property and
make sure things get done. 

J :]

  _____  

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:56:57 -0800
From: janesta at gmail.com
To: mattd2107 at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com; privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Contractors

In Couer d' Alene, if the walks aren't cleared by 9:00 am, and kept clear,
the city will do it, and fine the property owner $100.00. If the fine isn't
paid, it is attached as a lien on their property.

Put the kids on probation to work. It is a tangible way to know they have
completed the job. If the snow hasn't been removed, the job isn't done.

I respectfully disagree with you, Matt. The buck stops with the owner of the
property. Why should I get injured due to the neglance of a property owner?
Taking care of the sidewalks is part of the responsibility of being a
property owner.

Also, Matt, I appreciate your gracious offer to shovel my walks last week...
*smile* I don't have any sidewalks, other than a short three foot walk to
the gravel alley.

Janesta

On 1/28/08, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote: 

I think going down this road can lead to a whole new can of worms. If we
start doing contractor work for snow, then whats next? 

Maybe I can start billing the city for plowing my street. 

I believe if the people in town need help with the sidewalks, just ask. Many
out there will help. No need to fine people who in most cases can't do it or
are out of town.

2 cents
Matt

  _____  

From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:39:08 -0800
Subject: [Vision2020] Contractors 

I know this won't solve the issue today, but has the City or County ever
thought about having contractors on retainer, so that if a problem area
sidewalk owner/responsible party refuses to or is slow to clean it off, the
contractor is brought in to do the cleaning off and then the
owner/responsible party is fined for the work done?  If there isn't anything
like that now on the books, is there a possibility to consider it in the
future, like for next year?

Comments????

J :]

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