[Vision2020] God's problem

Fri Feb 22 19:38:14 PST 2008

Andrew writes:

"Humans are restricted to living on various places on the Earth. The
Earth, I have been informed, is an unpleasant place. 66% of it is
uninhabitable on account of its being filled with a noxious and salty
fluid we are unable to breathe." 

  Earth is not an unpleasant place to me. It is beautiful, wonderful, and the only place in the known universe that is hospitable to human life. If you know of another better place, feel free to go there and take as many people with you as possible. And you doubt if the earth wasn't covered 2/3 with waters, humans would not try to populate and exploit it too? How inhabitable would the 1/3 we live on be if it was not for the other 2/3 s we cannot yet occupy and destroy full time?

  "The remainder suffers from excess of cold, excess of heat, mosquitoes and biting flies, avalanches (where it's cold), hurricanes (where it isn't), wolves, lions, tigers, bears,
syphilis and tuberculosis, obesity (where there's food) and starvation
(where there isn't). We also have brain cancer, heart attacks and
Alzheimer's, meteor impacts, lightning strikes, brake failures and
schizophrenia, if you would prefer more personal methods of summary."

  Almost all of these are human caused. Humans can live in the hottest and coldest places on the planet, and have for thousands of years with only what God gave them. Humans are also responsible for many of the environmental problems we must now endure with their machines and polluting factories and overpopulation. 

  How many people do you know that have died from wolves, bears, tigers, lightening strikes, and meteor impacts? Maybe 100 people out of how many billions? And how many of those deaths were the result of a person or persons doing something stupid, like poking the tiger with a stick and a zookeeper putting the tiger in an escapable cage?

  How is the spread of syphilis, heart attacks, brake failures, and obesity not the direct fault of humans?

  Cancer we know what causes that. Some things, like Alzheimers, you might have a point. But I believe that if humans would put resources into this we could find the cause, and it would most likely be something that humans are doing wrong to each other or to themselves or maybe the planet. 

  I am yet to find an example, or a human problem that is not human caused in some way. 

  I am not saying individuals are responsible for everything that happens to them individually, but what I am saying, is that humans suffer because of humans acting and behaving in a manner that is against God or nature. 

  Best Regards,

  Donovan

  The remainder suffers from excess of
cold, excess of heat, mosquitoes and biting flies, avalanches (where
it's cold), hurricanes (where it isn't), wolves, lions, tigers, bears,
syphilis and tuberculosis, obesity (where there's food) and starvation
(where there isn't). We also have brain cancer, heart attacks and
Alzheimers, meteor impacts, lightning strikes, brake failures and
schizophrenia, if you would prefer more personal methods of summary.

Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com> wrote:
  Donovan --

Seriously.

Humans are restricted to living on various places on the Earth. The
Earth, I have been informed, is an unpleasant place. 66% of it is
uninhabitable on account of its being filled with a noxious and salty
fluid we are unable to breathe. The remainder suffers from excess of
cold, excess of heat, mosquitoes and biting flies, avalanches (where
it's cold), hurricanes (where it isn't), wolves, lions, tigers, bears,
syphilis and tuberculosis, obesity (where there's food) and starvation
(where there isn't). We also have brain cancer, heart attacks and
Alzheimers, meteor impacts, lightning strikes, brake failures and
schizophrenia, if you would prefer more personal methods of summary.

The vast majority of human behavior is dedicated to staving off one of
the myriad ways the Earth has produced for us to suffer, and, as a
byproduct of that staving-off, creating every single one of the unique
methods humans have devised for causing suffering.

Insofar as a hypothetical Creator has given us the choice between
hurricanes and avalanches, we have "free will." However, nothing in my
experience has led me to believe that we have anything but the
flimsiest control over how, and whether, we suffer.

Perhaps your newfound conviction that people deserve the suffering
they get explains the 180-degree reversal of your political beliefs,
hmm?

-- ACS

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Donovan Arnold
wrote:
> Sorry, Chas, all those things are caused by human actions and in-actions.
>
> Earthquakes don't kill people, people built buildings that cannot withstand
> earthquakes falling on them, or bridges falling on them are what kill
> people. How many people die from earthquakes directly, swallowed up by the
> earth?
>
> Floods occur because people choose to live in flood regions and because of
> global warming and other interactions with the environment.
>
> People die from fires usually because they are in buildings or a car made by
> humans that traps the smoke in and kills them.
>
> Most illnesses, cancer, AIDS, parasites, malaria, famine and other illness
> are spread through unclean human actions and in-actions.
>
>
> Now you could argue, God could prevent humans from doing things that are
> stupid or immoral, or have negative consequences on others in one way or
> another, but that would take away free will, and would then mean man would
> not be responsible for his/her actions, thoughts, and decisions.
>
> Now, I challenge you to find me at least two example of where humans suffer
> on mass, as a result of God, not because of human actions or in-actions?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Donovan
>
>
>
> Chasuk wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Donovan Arnold
>
> wrote:
>
> > Every bit of suffering by humans is caused by humans, without exception.
>
> There are legion tsunami, hurricane, earthquake, flood, fire, and
> drought victims who might disagree with you. Ditto all of the victims
> of malaria, pneumonia, tuberculosis, cancer, encephalitis, parasitic
> infection, and birth defects. I could make the list much longer, but
> I'm sure you get the idea.
>
>
> > God does not prevent humans from causing other humans from suffering
> because he
> > gave us freewill.
>
> So, I give my kids a gift that is so dangerous they will
> unquestionably kill and maim themselves, and others, with it. This
> suffering will be also be visited upon their children, and their
> children's children, etc., and I know it when I give them this gift.
>
> What court wouldn't convict me?
>
> I'm sidestepping the issue of whether free will exists, and running
> with your ball.
>
> If we had not been gifted with free will, we certainly wouldn't have
> missed it. I'm sure that my toddlers would have been fascinated by
> razor blades, but I wisely decided against razor blades as a gift.
> And do you know what? They didn't complain, not even once. We are
> toddlers -- possibly infants -- before any putative God, so the
> comparison is apt.
>
> Now consider how well God engineered pain. I'll admit that pain is a
> pretty nifty idea, arguably even a necessity. Think how badly we
> might injure or disfigure ourselves if it weren't for pain causing us
> to pull our hand out of the fire. But did he really need to invent
> phantom limb pain? Or pain that continues for years and years, even
> after its purpose has been served? And did he have to make it so
> intense? A burn wouldn't have to hurt half as much and I would still
> quickly pull my hand out of the fire.
>
> Bravo, God.
>
> Can we dispense with the piety now?
>
>
>
>
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