[Vision2020] Advanced Real Estate Question (corrected)
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Wed Feb 13 17:42:11 PST 2008
I meant 2008 February 08 Sorry the format I used confused you.
To not get how I arrived at fair rate would mean you believe that the rate we all pay now is some sort of sweet heart deal and that three times that amount would still be a rate that was less than the cost of delivery. Judging by my water bill I doubt that is the case.
I don't understand your point regarding the confidentiality agreement. Just because Wayne "didn't know he was going to have to sign such a thing" doesn't mean that it was in any way inappropriate. In the words of your beloved mayor (from the article previously discussed) "Chaney said she was not surprised that the mediation session was kept confidential. To disclose things in a legal dispute would be counterproductive to Moscow's interests."
g
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ford
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Advanced Real Estate Question
Em, did you mean 8 Feb 08
or
2 Aug 08 (in which case - WOW! do you have a pipeline or what?!)
And you seem to be reading something that isn't in your quote....he says "as much as three times the in-town rate" which I gather in reference to the water rate. I don't get the local rag nor have access to the web copy...if you'd care to post it like Saundra and others do when using that as a source, that'd be great. Not sure how you get "fair rate" outta that, but oh well.
Still don't see where signing a "Confidentiality Agreement" is allowed given the State Laws on open meetings and other concerns others on this BB have mentioned. Heck, even Wayne said he didn't know he was going to have to sign such a thing until the day/minute of his being taken to the meeting....or was he mis-stating the facts during his comments as posted on "Moscow Cares"?
J :]
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:44:28 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Advanced Real Estate Question
From the Moscow Pullman Daily News web site on 080208:
"The current rate for businesses outside the city limits is twice that of businesses in town, Krauss said. The rate for Hawkins could be as much as three times the in-town rate."
Your second question is also answered in the same article by your beloved mayor, Nancy Chaney.
Reading, it's FUNdamental
g
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ford
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Advanced Real Estate Question
Questions, G....how do you know "Hawkins will be paying fair market value for the services they receive."...you have some kinda insider that is feeding this to you or is this just a rough guess on your part? You sure seem to be the "man-in-the-know" about things these days.
Since when does a Council have to sign a "Confidentiality Agreement", in secret, not being given any kind of notice before-hand that this will be required of them, in order to discuss this with kind of thing with a developer? What were they afraid would be disclosed and opposed to by the public? The other developments (with the exception of WalMart) in the City have all been out in the open and opened to public comment as it should be. Why the change-up?
Just asking.
J :]
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: garrettmc at verizon.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:15:07 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Advanced Real Estate Question
Just a couple of points. Everyone is aware of the old saw "repeat a lie often enough..." Well, droning on about Moscow "subsidizing" the new development surely falls into this category. Hawkins will be paying fair market value for the services they receive. Future infrastructure improvements brought about by increased demand are funded through the monies collected from rate payers for services and not from general tax revenues. As a result Hawkins will be paying its own way right on down the line.
The next point is about the "need" for this development. This is not a public works project. There does not have to be a determination of need before an entrepreneur can decide to take a risk with their own land and assets in hopes of making a profit. I know that there is a sizable group here in Moscow that thinks that all decisions should be made collectively but thankfully we have not quite yet reached that unpleasant point.
Lastly, I have asked this question before but I'll give it one more shot. Since every anti-development writer has bemoaned the councils "need to hide their negotiations" what is it that you think has been kept from us? We have been presented with the final result, all we missed was the sausage making. Is it your contention that something illegal took place? If so, then just say it plain. Making vague and insupportable insinuations is a cheap tool for carving out a weak argument.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc at verizon.net>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:27 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Advanced Real Estate Question
> Ted writes:
>
> "there are critical issues regarding this Hawkins
> development that are not even on the radar in this
> discussion, such as mitigation of CO2
> emissions related climate change, and those eventual
> massive economic impacts, and the economic
> consequences of fossil fuel depletion, as it relates
> to the long term viability of sprawling suburban
> development, when the fossil fueled fleet of vehicles
> that deliver to, service and allow consumer access to
> this development, becomes very expensive to operate."
>
>
> I reply:
>
> Ted has a really good points here (and questions
> further in his post)
>
> After being dissed by the council regarding the noise
> ordinance in such an unscrupulous way, my tolerance
> for council actions that seem underhanded is "zero."
> This is something that motivated me to look into the
> Hawkins deal a bit deeper. Considering the secret
> negotiations and potential cost to Moscow, this is
> something everybody should look into before deciding
> one way or the other.
>
> I admit I am against the mall for my own personal
> reason as I think it's a waste of resources just to
> sell cheap stuff made overseas (another way this
> drains on our national economy) Most of the big box
> stores are making such profit because they exploit the
> labor and resources of other countries.
>
> I'll provide my argument against it as fairly as I
> can, but now you know that I have initial
> philosophical disagreements with it to begin with.
>
> Hawkins is proposing a 714,000 square foot mall right
> on our border near the Palouse Empire Mall. They say
> Lowe's is their anchor store.
>
> The Palouse Empire Mall is 384,000 square feet.
>
> What I wonder is why people need so much more mall
> space? How do they figure investing in this thing
> will bring them profits? According to the Spokesman
> on 2/9, "The development might cost $60 million to
> $100 million"
>
> $100 million just to pay it back. They are putting it
> near Moscow because they want Moscow's business. So
> that potentially is at least $100 of lost revenue to
> Moscow businesses.
>
> Home Depot recently withdrew their proposal to build
> in Moscow, and apparently the potential Lowe's did not
> influence their decision. >From what I can tell, they
> pulled out because they didn't think Moscow would pull
> in enough revenue to cover their costs.
>
> So, if Home Depot feels Moscow is not profitable, it
> makes you wonder why Lowe's, and the whole Hawkins
> mall, thinks they can actually make this profitable.
>
> Perhaps the fact that the council voted to provide
> corporate welfare to the predatory developers on the
> other side of the border tips the balance in their
> favor. And the fact that Whitman county is
> subsidizing $9.1 million to pay for the Hawkins public
> infrastructure.
>
> If you are someone who supports the mall, I suggest
> you ask yourself, "Is building Hawkins worth it and
> needed? Do you feel comfortable knowing Moscow will
> be subsidizing that development, Moscow's competitor?
> Do you think all the environmental consequences, such
> as water use, land development (How many tons of dirt
> are going to have to be moved on that hill to make it
> flat and buildable?) and fuel use really is necessary
> just to have more stores that more than likely will
> sell the same things other stores in the region sell?
>
> Finally, why can't the process be more transparent and
> democracy-friendly? The fact that the city feels the
> need to hide their negotiations seems suspicious to
> me.
>
>>From what I can tell, I have even more reasons to not
> support this mall based on the evidence I've been able
> to find, and I particularly resent the city making the
> taxpayers of Moscow subsidize Hawkins.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Garrett Clevenger
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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