[Vision2020] Shoes thrown at President Bush

[Donovan Arnold]

Keely,

If you had read my previous posts, you would be aware that I don't disagree with the importance of defending the accused. That isn't my argument. People just presume it is without reading the conversation. 

And I didn't start the attacks, Sunil did. 

Best Regards,

Donovan


--- On Fri, 12/19/08, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

> From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Shoes thrown at President Bush
> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com, sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> Date: Friday, December 19, 2008, 9:37 PM
> Since so many people, Donovan, whose "only crime is
> being . . . poor" have been presumed solely on that
> basis to be "obvious criminals," I'm puzzled
> that you don't find Sunil's work to be important for
> a world of justice, truth, and equality.  I agree with you
> that society hasn't shown proper concern for the
> elderly, disabled, and poor, but criticizing, much less
> eliminating, effective legal representation for the outcast,
> underprivileged, and oppressed hardly seems consistent.
> 
> The only real consistency I see in your argument is your
> unyielding dislike of Sunil, which not only doesn't do a
> lot to confirm your concern for the poor, but does,
> actually, confirm your inability to drop an attack once
> you've started it.  
> 
> Keely
> http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:22:43 -0800
> > From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Shoes thrown at President
> Bush
> > 
> > Donovan
> > 
> > Latah has thousands of people whose only crime is
> being elderly, having a disability or being poor that live a
> much lower quality of life because state, local, and federal
> laws regarding their rights are ignored on a daily basis and
> there is scarcely a lawyer to defend their constitutional
> and legal rights. 
> > 
> > Yet, there are lawyers lined up around the corner,
> bidding on an opportunity to defend and free known
> criminals, sex offenders, and the like. 
> > 
> > And this, as many will have me believe, is all because
> the common lawyer believes in Justice, Truth, and Equality?
> > 
> > Guess you must all think me naïve then for thinking
> it hogwash. If we had a justice system that worked, it would
> be the obvious criminals struggling to find representation
> for their apparent crimes, and true victims of society with
> lawyers flocking to them. 
> > 
> > Until we ask why, and demand a satisfactory answer, it
> will never change.
> > 
> > I too believe that there are Constitutional principles
> that may lead some lawyers to defend the truly guilty-- I
> won’t quarrel with that argument. But what system we have
> now is twisted. And I think it is very much because we hold
> getting a criminal off a crime with higher regard than that
> of addressing the issues of quality of life for all members
> of our society.  
> > 
> > Sunil boasts of his assistance to his neighbor by
> shoveling their sidewalk. Yet, I ask, what of my neighbor
> who cannot use the sidewalk because it is not wide enough
> for his wheelchair? 
> > 
> > There are too many “noble” lawyers flocking to
> defend those we know to be guilty and not enough to protect
> those we know to be innocent. 
> > 
> > Sunil might claim to be able to sleep at night
> regardless of what I think, but the rest of us have to sleep
> with the doors locked because of what he does during the
> day. 
> > 
> > Our principles and understandings of what is right and
> wrong should be questioned when they result in the innocent
> being continuously victimized, ignored, and under
> represented while the criminals are continuously are
> defended, over represented, and released back into our
> community. 
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Donovan 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Fri, 12/19/08, Sunil Ramalingam
> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Sunil Ramalingam
> <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Shoes thrown at
> President Bush
> > > To: "vision 2020"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > Date: Friday, December 19, 2008, 5:21 PM
> > > Chas,
> > > 
> > > Most of my new clients are accused, not
> convicted. I do
> > > very little appellate work.  Under my public
> defender
> > > contract, and most in the state, felony appeals
> are handled
> > > by the Appellate PD office in Boise, run by
> Moscow's own
> > > Molly Huskey.  They do excellent work and are a
> great
> > > resource for us,
> > > always willing to help out. I do get appointed to
> some Post
> > > Conviction Petition cases, but not very many of
> those come
> > > in.  Those are almost always filed by prisoners,
> and once
> > > filed PDs are appointed to represent them.
> > > 
> > > Almost all of my current convicted clients are on
> > > probation, or are on the retained jurisdiction
> program in
> > > the prison system (the 'rider' program,
> sometimes
> > > called the boot camp program); if the latter
> succeed, they
> > > will be placed on probation.  I continue to
> represent them
> > > while they are on probation, and it's always
> my hope I
> > > won't have to see them again, as that will
> mean they are
> > > succeeding on probation.
> > > 
> > > Immediately after reading Donovan's post,
> which I will
> > > try not to describe, I read a post on a criminal
> defense
> > > listserve to which I belong.  I won't
> identify the
> > > poster, but this is what he said about why we do
> what we do:
> > > 
> > > "the reason for our organization is for all
> of us to
> > > know we are not
> > > alone in the battles we engage in day in and day
> out.  that
> > > there are
> > > many criminal defense lawyers in idaho all of
> whom try to
> > > provide
> > > a voice to the segment of our society who are
> voiceless and
> > > powerless, who are the left behind and left out
> and we are
> > > just trying
> > > to provide them with a small bit of dignity and
> respect. we
> > > continue to
> > > fight for their rights, for justice and for their
> freedom.
> > > that's the
> > > reason for the organization."
> > > 
> > > I think that describes what I aspire to, far
> better than I
> > > could have said.  Many of my clients grew up in
> horrific
> > > environments, and continue to live in poverty. 
> There's
> > > no shortage of people ready and willing to judge
> them, prior
> > > to any finding or admission of guilt.  We are
> here because
> > > they too have the right to representation, and
> the right to
> > > challenge the state on their behalf. People may
> not like it,
> > > but they get to have someone give a damn for
> them.
> > > 
> > > I'm a public defender because I believe that
> everyone
> > > is entitled to counsel under our Constitution. 
> Any thinking
> > > person ought to be able to understand that the
> right to
> > > counsel is meaningless if people are not willing
> to
> > > represent them; certainly thinking people have
> made that
> > > point here today.  I will not pretend for a
> minute to be
> > > some SuperLawyer, and some of my clients sitting
> in the pen
> > > will agree.  There are several criminal defense
> lawyers in
> > > town that I know are better than I am.  But I
> hope I always
> > > do my best for my clients, regardless of what
> they are
> > > charged with, and no matter what my personal view
> of the
> > > evidence is.   It's the exception when I
> can't see
> > > some humanity in them; there are very few that I
> haven't
> > > appreciated in some way.
> > > 
> > > If Donovan thinks I should do something else,
> that's
> > > his opinion.  I haven't lost much sleep over
> it. I
> > > won't pretend to understand how he can decide
> that I
> > > should not do work that I choose because I
> believe in
> > > principles embedded in our Constitution.  I
> can't
> > > understand how he can accuse me of expediency
> when I take
> > > consistent positions that reflect what I believe
> to be
> > > Constitutional values.  I'm baffled that
> first he
> > > exhorts me to work for the poor, and then libels
> me for not
> > > serving him in the way he finds appropriate. 
> I'd tell
> > > him about the folks whose sidewalks I shovel, but
> then he
> > > might show up in my neighborhood.
> > > 
> > > Sunil
> > > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:33:06 +0000
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Re: [Vision2020] Shoes thrown at
> President
> > > Bush
> > > From: chasuk at gmail.com
> > > To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com;
> vision2020 at moscow.com;
> > > sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; chasuk at gmail.com
> > > 
> > > On Dec 19, 2008 3:07pm, Donovan Arnold
> > > <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Your statement, "Does this mean that
> only the
> > > stupid and incapable should become public
> defenders?",
> > > can only assume that anyone with lesser talent of
> Sunil is
> > > "incapable and stupid." I disagree with
> that
> > > assessment. There are plenty of other competent
> lawyer's
> > > that are not as good as Sunil.
> > > 
> > > And:
> > > 
> > > > I think there are more noble causes in life
> to fight
> > > for than the release of a slew of convicted
> serial child
> > > molesters.
> > > 
> > > Sunil works with both the accused and the
> convicted,
> > > although I imagine that he spends more time with
> the former
> > > than the latter.  Hopefully, Sunil will enlighten
> us on that
> > > point.
> > > 
> > > So the accused don't deserve the best defense
> possible?
> > >  Or is it only the convicted who deserve a
> second-rate
> > > defense?  If Sunil happens to think -- as I hope
> he does --
> > > that we are all equal under the law, then I
> wonder how he
> > > reconciles giving his best on days that he
> represents the
> > > accused, and giving his second-best on days that
> he
> > > represents the convicted?
> > > 
> > > Comments, Sunil?
> > > 
> > > > If I was a good lawyer, wanting to do good,
> freeing
> > > child molesters and criminals back into my
> community would
> > > not be a first cause I would champion.
> > > 
> > > Sunil might feel that defending the unjustly
> accused --
> > > possibly from the death penalty or a lifetime of
> > > incarceration -- is as important as plowing snow.
> > > 
> > > His clients should understand when he tells them:
> > > "Look, I know that the attorney replacing me
> isn't
> > > nearly as good as I am, but he is competent, I
> swear!  But I
> > > need to use my talents on nobler causes like
> widening
> > > sidewalks and affordable housing.  Say hello to
> your wife
> > > and kids for me when you get out of prison."
> > > 
> > > Of course, all of the causes you listed are
> genuinely
> > > important.  I'm not mocking them.
> > > 
> > > Each and every one of us could be doing more to
> make the
> > > world a better place, and Sunil is already doing
> more than I
> > > am, or will likely ever do.
> > > 
> > > Are you sure that you are qualified to throw
> > >
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