[Vision2020] Obama Citizenship

[Chasuk]

I've been slumming on the Hillary Clinton Forum, trying to avoid
spittle, when I came across this interesting post:


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I came here doing a google search for Hillary's views and regarding
the Sec'y of State thing. But then I saw this thread and the
RIDICULOUS amount of misinformation and just plain wrongness on it,
and thought I should respond, as someone with expertise on the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timeforrealchange View Post
Listen to this call where the Kenyan Embassy says Obama was born there
and they are building a monument to him.

http://my.wrif.com/mim/?p=916
And your "source" is Mike in the Morning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by timeforrealchange View Post
OKEY DOKEY. So then there is NO reason Obama should have lawyers
arguing in court cases that he shouldn't have to produce his Hawaiian
vault copy of his birth certificate, right? What is he hiding? Any
person who has run for President in the past, including McCain would
produce theirs if asked.

What is he hiding? He works for US, we the people, not vice versa. He
is not an emporer (yet anyway).
Quote:
Originally Posted by timeforrealchange View Post
Well, WHY do you think he refuses to show it? WHY does he spend
thousands on lawyers to oppose its release? It makes NO sense and
indicates he is hiding something or at the very least likes stirring
things up and making life miserable for those who love this country
and believe only a natural born citizen at birth should be president.
He is mean-spirited or dishonest and neither quality is good in a
president!
Wrong. Obama's lawyers are not arguing to "not produce" his birth
certificate. This is why nonlawyers shouldn't be arguing about
intricate legal processes, because you just end up arguing nonsensical
points.

He hasn't produced his birth certificate because these court cases
have not (and will not) reach the discovery stage, which is where
evidence is produced. In a federal lawsuit, there are motions that
have to be made at the initial stage - either in an Answer to the
Complaint, or in a motion for dismissal that comes before the
Defendant files an answer. If those defenses are not pled at that
initial stage they are waived. It wouldn't just be poor strategy for
his lawyers to fail to plead those defenses, it would be malpractice,
and further, a disciplinary violation (in most jurisdictions).

The two defenses that were specifically raised are valid - lack of
standing on the part of the Plaintiff, and FRCP 12(b)(6), "failure to
state a claim upon which relief can be granted."

This isn't like your company meeting where you try to stick to
"Roberts Rules" but if things get a little off course people don't
mind. This is federal court. Things are done in a certain order
according to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. His lawyers have
followed the proper order. The fact that these lawsuits don't survive
these motions is the fault of the Plaintiffs, not a massive "cover
up".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal4Hillary View Post
Oh, so you've seen Obama's VAULT COPY of his birth certificate from
Hawaii? Not the photoshopped "certification of birth," various
versions of which were posted on Obama's and other web sites? Would
you post it here so we can see it, too? How did you get hold of it,
considering Obama STILL hasn't supplied it in response to the lawsuits
that have been filed?
In regard to the lawsuits, see above.

In regard to the "vault copy", such a document cannot be ordered.
Obama issued the only document that can be, his birth certificate,
which is 100% proof of citizenship in any jurisdiction in the western
hemisphere.

Furthermore, nonpartisan factcheck.org actually sent a reporter,
examined the birth certificate, held it in their hands, and published
hi-res images on it of their website. The only people that aren't
satisfied with that are kooks. Their stories on it are still
available, along with the hi-res photos. See for yourself.

Quote:
And another thing: Have you also seen PROOF that Obama relinquished
his Indonesian citizenship and reclaimed his American citizenship
[assuming he ever had American citizenship]? When he was a citizen of
Indonesia, that country didn't allow dual citizenship, so he could NOT
have also held American citizenship at that time. As far as I know, no
one has yet uncovered any documentation that he reclaimed his American
citizenship. In fact, when he traveled to Pakistan in the '80s, that
country did not allow US citizens in, hence he MUST HAVE used another
country's citizenship to get in.
This is utter nonsense.

1) Even assuming, arguendo, that he had Indonesian citizenship ever,
he would not need to renounce it upon entering the United States.
First of all, minor American citizens who move abroad with their
parents do not lose their citizenship, even if their parents
naturalize in another country. Insofar as the lawsuit suggests that,
it is 100%, unequivocally, wrong.

Prior to 1939, American children whose parents gave up citizenship in
the US could lose their citizenship. Then, those portions of the law
were overruled by the Supreme Court in Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325
(1939). More crucially, though, the law was amended (prior to little
Barry's overseas stay) to say that children whose parents lose their
citizenship lost their citizenship, too, but ONLY if they did not move
back to the United States before their 25th birthday. In other words,
when Barrack's mom took him to Indonesia, regardless of what she did,
as long as he came back to the US before his 25th birthday, he didn't
lose his citizenship. Seeing as he clearly did, he most certainly did
not lose his citizenship.

Besides the above, there are requirements in the loss of citizenship
laws that say these actions must be taken with the INTENT to lose your
citizenship, but they are beside the point here (since the issue
wouldn't even come up).

2) IT DOESN'T MATTER what another country says about my citizenship,
the only thing that matters is what the US says. Repeat: The ONLY
rules that matter are the US rules on citizenship, until he tries to
become President of Indonesia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timeforrealchange View Post
They said it exists, NOT what is on it. Since they violated the
privacy of Obama by revealing it exits, they are obligated to SHOW it
to us, Us citizens!
No, they aren't. They did exactly what the law says - disclose it
exists. The fact that it exists means he was born in Hawaii.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tague View Post
If this case has truely made it to a hearing before the SCOTUS, then
what you are saying is evidently not bullet proof enough - if it was
then a SCOTUS review would never happen.l
The case has not made it to a Supreme Court hearing. It's listed as
one of the cases to be voted on for certiorari, just like 80,000 or so
other cases that come before the Court every year.

Furthermore, (once again... problem with laypeople arguing legal
minutae) if the Supreme Court DOES hear the case (it won't happen), it
will NOT be on the issue of whether or or Barack Obama is eligible to
be President. If the Supreme Court loses their mind and hears this
case, and if hell freezes over and they decide in Berg's favor, the
case will be returned to the District Court, at which time it will go
through probably another dozen motions (just thinking of the ones I
can see from my knowledge of the suit) before it gets to the discovery
stage, which is where evidence is produced.

The issue of his B.C., etc, is an issue of FACT. The Supreme Court
hears issues of law, i.e., whether or not Berg has standing to sue
Obama (he doesn't, BTW). The court of original jurisdiction in the
federal system is District Court, and that is the only one where the
factual issues will be heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal4Hillary View Post
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you've now
proven that you're nothing but a typical Obamabot. You buy whatever
the messiah says.
Namecalling... always the hallmark of someone with a strong argument...

Quote:
I see you avoided the Indonesian/Pakistan part of my post. Not
surprising, since there is no REASONABLE explanation an Obamabot can
provide.
See above. There is, and I have provided it. You are out of gas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal4Hillary View Post
Really! Can you believe his absolute refusal to accept facts?
Unbelievable. No...just indicative of some serious Kool-Aid drinking.
He thinks it doesn't matter if Obama is STILL an Indonesian citizen.
Amazing.
It doesn't. See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal4Hillary View Post
Sorry, but you're wrong again.

The proof is on Barry Soetoro's school registration documents from
Indonesia. They PLAINLY list his citizenship as Indonesian. And even
if they didn't explicitly say that, public schools in Indonesia when
he attended them did NOT allow non-Indonesian citizens to attend.

Are you getting a clue yet?
Are you? Hint: See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS825 View Post
yes confirmed they have the the BC not what is on the BC and since it
was never shown it will never be known. But when the SC requests it we
will see. A COLB means person was born if your born in another country
but your mom lives in the state she can register you with the state
she is in and will get a COLB. Means your a citizen of tht state does
not mean your a natural citizen
No. Certificate of Live Birth means a person was born in that jurisdiction.

The Supreme Court will not request it, for the reasons I stated above.


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Anyway, it was longish, but contained interesting information, I thought.

Chas