[Vision2020] being fair and even
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 27 00:20:53 PDT 2008
Roger,
I don't think Obama is going to try and nationalize energy. Obama, or McCain's. first mission will be to get re-elected in 2012. Nationalizing energy, and/or allowing "Big Oil" to drill more will do nothing to resolve high energy costs and pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels.
I think electing McCain is a mistake for conservative Republicans. Conservative ideas will be replaced as the Republican Party is reshaped in McCain's image.
I cannot bring myself to vote for McCain because he left his disabled wife and three children to marry a multimillionaire heiress 18 years his junior and pursue a career in politics working for a convicted felon.
McCain's service to his country in battle was honorable, but the treatment of first family at home was beyond disgraceful.
Best Regards,
Donovan
--- On Tue, 8/26/08, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 12:32 PM
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Roger
-----Original message-----
From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:23:14 -0700
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
>
> Roger,
>
> You're changing the issue. I haven't been talking about menacing
prisoners with dogs. I've been focusing on waterboarding; my position is
that it is torture. You are defending its use, and are advocating the use of
torture. Your logic below appears to defend the use of torture on anyone we
hold who we think may have information. I continue to have two main responses
to that position:
>
> 1. By your logic we then are justified in torturing anyone we suspect may
have information we want. There's no end to the list of people we'll
torture.
>
> 2. Why should we believe we will get accurate information when we do this?
And what limits are we going to have once we start doing this? My answer to the
first question is 'We shouldn't'; to the second, 'None.'
>
> Why do you think the White House was so busy drafting opinions that
allowed torture? Because the people doing it wanted legal cover, so they could
say that they were told it was not torture.
>
> Abu Ghraib is not about amusement. Orders came from above, and the
flunkies at the bottom are the ones who paid the price. Let's see who makes
the pardons list when W leaves. I bet Gen. Geoffrey Miller makes it. I bet
some of the people who drafted the legal opinions make it.
>
> Sunil
>
> > Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:15:02 -0700
> > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> >
> > Sunil
> > I think that you are a nice companionate guy, but that compassion
leads you to some erroneous conclusions. There is a difference between
psychological stress and physical torture. If a growing dog with teeth beared is
a few inches away from your face it would be quite distressing, but it not
torture until the dog is released. If you have some one in captivity who is part
of a group that has blown up building and killed large numbers of people and
other members are stil at large; it is reasonable to assume he has the names of
those still at large. This is obviously different than the average solder
captured in battle. This is not a case that if it is used in extreme cases it is
justified in all cases. Everything is not black and white. There are many gray
areas.
> > The manual Tom keeps referring to was not written by those who have
to make the had choices of applying them. There are many cases where orders
should not be followed. WWII established that. There is also the Case of
Chivington at Sand Spring and Lt Cally at My Lai( a helicopter pilot did try to
stop it). On the other hand ther is the case of MacArthur and Truman. MacArthur
was right about how to fight the war. Truman also had no choice but to fire him.
Every general can not be deciding policy, but presidents should listen to them
on how to fight a war. Abu Ghrauib is different case. This was a case of
amusement, not gathering vital information, but it pales in comparison to
Al-Quaeda who beheads people.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:06:55 -0700
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We could pull their fingernails too. Shove sharp objects in
their genitals, maybe. Might get us some info, right?
> > >
> > > McCain says he talked too, after he was tortured. Says he
didn't tell them anything truthful. So we should hurt people until they
sing? No thanks.
> > >
> > > How can you tell which prisoner has the information you say will
save lives? Better torture them all, right? One of them might know something.
> > >
> > > Roger, once we set down the road you're ready to walk,
there's no reason not to torture everyone, and we can keep telling ourselves
lies to pretend it's all right.
> > >
> > > I don't think advocating torture will get me to the moral
high ground. Defending it hasn't gotten you there. Question my priorities
all you will. You won't find defending torture on my list, and I can live
with that.
> > >
> > > Sunil
> > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:11:00 -0700
> > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > >
> > > > On waerboarding
> > > > It should not be used as a routine interrogation procedure.
In extreme case in order to save lives it could be used as a last resort. One of
the 9/11 terrorists would not talk. When he was waterboarded, he sang. I think
it was justified in this case. If that is the only way to obtain information
that may save lives, it is justified. I would have an extremely guilty
conscience if I did not use it and that omission resulted in multiply deaths.
These are people who would behead you given the opportunity. If you would not
use it in any case, I would question your priorities. You are not on the moral
high ground here.
> > > > Roger
> > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:16:56 -0700
> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What else ould he mean?
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe he's talking about our financial system.
Both parties are busy shoring up private institutions with taxpayer money.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you think that's socialism or full-blown
communism, or is it part of restructuring the economy.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think your conclusion is one of the last I would
leap to without evidence. I don't know how you can simultaneously make that
leap and still require more time on waterboarding.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sunil
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:53:07 -0700
> > > > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > > > To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com;
vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What else can he mean by completely restructuring
the economy? Think about it.
> > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > > > From: Sunil Ramalingam
sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:44:06 -0700
> > > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Roger,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seems to me you're making an enormous
and unfounded leap to say that Obama is talking about 'full blown socialism
if not communism.' Without foundation for that claim it's pretty
ludicrous.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sunil
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:28:22 -0700
> > > > > > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] being fair and
even
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sue doesn't think I'e been fair
and even in the ridicule or poking fun at department. I think that Saundra's
George Bush cartoon was a fair response to my kittens joke. I will give her
another one. The radio talk show hosts have been belittling Obama for his "
that is a higher pay grade than me" answer at the Saddleback Forum. I
don't see a problem with it. He could have been referring to God. Who knows?
In any case why waste time on it. There are more important thing to be worried
about. For instance he said "It will be necessary to restructure the entire
american economy. That translates to full blown socialism if not communism to
me. That scares the hell out of me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
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