[Vision2020] being fair and even

Tue Aug 26 12:23:14 PDT 2008

Roger,

You're changing the issue.  I haven't been talking about menacing prisoners with dogs.  I've been focusing on waterboarding; my position is that it is torture.  You are defending its use, and are advocating the use of torture.  Your logic below appears to defend the use of torture on anyone we hold who we think may have information.  I continue to have two main responses to that position:

1. By your logic we then are justified in torturing anyone we suspect may have information we want.  There's no end to the list of people we'll torture.

2. Why should we believe we will get accurate information when we do this?  And what limits are we going to have once we start doing this? My answer to the first question is 'We shouldn't'; to the second, 'None.'

Why do you think the White House was so busy drafting opinions that allowed torture?  Because the people doing it wanted legal cover, so they could say that they were told it was not torture.

Abu Ghraib is not about amusement.  Orders came from above, and the flunkies at the bottom are the ones who paid the price.  Let's see who makes the pardons list when W leaves.  I bet Gen. Geoffrey Miller makes it.  I bet some of the people who drafted the legal opinions make it.

Sunil

> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:15:02 -0700
> From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> 
> Sunil
> I think that you are a nice companionate guy, but that compassion leads you to some erroneous conclusions. There is a difference between psychological stress and physical torture. If a growing dog with teeth beared is a few inches away  from your face it would be quite distressing, but it not torture until the dog is released. If you have some one in captivity who is part of a group that has blown up building and killed  large numbers of people and other members are stil at large; it is reasonable to assume he has the names of those still at large. This is obviously different than the average solder captured in battle. This is not a case that if it is used in extreme cases it is justified in all cases. Everything is not black and white. There are many gray areas. 
> The manual Tom keeps referring to was not written by those who have to make the had choices of applying them. There are many cases where orders should not be followed.  WWII established that. There is also the Case of Chivington at Sand Spring and Lt Cally at My Lai( a helicopter pilot did try to stop it). On the other hand ther is the case of MacArthur and Truman. MacArthur was right about how to fight the war. Truman also had no choice but to fire him. Every general can not be deciding policy, but presidents should listen to them on how to fight a war. Abu Ghrauib is different case. This was a case of amusement, not gathering vital information, but it pales in comparison to Al-Quaeda who beheads people.
> Roger
> -----Original message-----
> From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:06:55 -0700
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > We could pull their fingernails too.  Shove sharp objects in their genitals, maybe.  Might get us some info, right?
> > 
> > McCain says he talked too, after he was tortured.  Says he didn't tell them anything truthful.  So we should hurt people until they sing?  No thanks.
> > 
> > How can you tell which prisoner has the information you say will save lives?  Better torture them all, right?  One of them might know something.
> > 
> > Roger, once we set down the road you're ready to walk, there's no reason not to torture everyone, and we can keep telling ourselves lies to pretend it's all right.
> > 
> > I don't think advocating torture will get me to the moral high ground.  Defending it hasn't gotten you there.  Question my priorities all you will.  You won't find defending torture on my list, and I can live with that.
> > 
> > Sunil
> > 
> > > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:11:00 -0700
> > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > 
> > > On waerboarding
> > > It should not be used as a routine interrogation procedure. In extreme case in order to save lives it could be used as a last resort. One of the 9/11 terrorists would not talk. When he was waterboarded, he sang. I think it was justified in this case. If that is the only way to obtain information that may save lives, it is justified. I would have an extremely guilty conscience  if I did not use it and that omission resulted in multiply deaths. These are people who would behead you given the opportunity. If you would not use it in any case, I would question your priorities. You are not on the moral high ground here.
> > > Roger
> > > -----Original message-----
> > > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:16:56 -0700
> > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > What else ould he mean?
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe he's talking about our financial system.  Both parties are busy shoring up private institutions with taxpayer money.
> > > > 
> > > > Do you think that's socialism or full-blown communism, or is it part of restructuring the economy.
> > > > 
> > > > I think your conclusion is one of the last I would leap to without evidence.  I don't know how you can simultaneously make that leap and still require more time on waterboarding.
> > > > 
> > > > Sunil
> > > > 
> > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:53:07 -0700
> > > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > > To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > > > 
> > > > > What else can he mean by completely restructuring the economy? Think about it.
> > > > > Roger
> > > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:44:06 -0700
> > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Roger,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Seems to me you're making an enormous and unfounded leap to say that Obama is talking about 'full blown socialism if not communism.'  Without foundation for that claim it's pretty ludicrous.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Sunil
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:28:22 -0700
> > > > > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Sue doesn't think I'e been fair and even in the ridicule or poking fun at department. I think that Saundra's George Bush cartoon was a fair response to my kittens joke. I will give her another one. The radio talk show hosts have been belittling Obama for his " that is a higher pay grade than me" answer at the Saddleback Forum. I don't see a problem with it. He could have been referring to God. Who knows? In any case why waste time on it. There are more important thing to be worried about. For instance he said "It will be necessary to restructure the entire american economy. That translates to full blown socialism if not communism to me. That scares the hell out of me.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Roger
> > > > > > > 
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> > > > 
> > > > 
> > 
> > 
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