[Vision2020] FW: being fair and even
Levi Cavener
lcavener at vandals.uidaho.edu
Fri Aug 22 17:24:38 PDT 2008
"We, the United States, once held the moral high ground. Nations around
the world respected us, not for our military threat capabilities, but for
our words and deeds."
Remind me just what nations have respected the United States because of our words and deeds and not the threat
of the United States bullying sovereign nations into getting our way. Perhaps the Japanese respect us because
of the westernization process that we forced on them following their defeat in WWII, and not because they fear
losing entire cities by nuclear weapons. Maybe Cuba respects us because we attempted to bring democracy back
to their nation after their revolution, and not because we try to assassinate
their leader or threaten nuclear annihilation when they don't play by our rules. Perhaps Nicaraguans enjoy
our government trying to undermine their sovereignty by financing US friendly contra groups in the hope a
revolution would occur that would bring a more US friendly government - Well at least we know Iran certainly was
excited to buy weapons from us to use and pay for the Nicaraguan cause at the same time. Maybe Vietnam
was excited to know that we don't respect their nation's sovereignty and are more than happy to
involve ourselves in foreign affairs that we are otherwise not involved in when we feel its appropriate. Maybe
Mexico really wanted to give away a substantial part of its land to our country, and it had nothing to do with
our country using its military to get what we wanted. The Philippines of course realize now that they just
weren't yet prepared to govern themselves after the Spanish American war and now respect us for looking
after their true interests. Surely Hawaiians appreciate and wanted to be part of
the United States - it had absolutely nothing to do US marines on the islands making sure US interests were
protected. Maybe the Native American nations truly wanted to become a part of the USA and were not offended
at all by the US violating treaty after treaty that we signed with them or using our military and violence
to insure compliance. And we all know how much the Middle East loves it when we involve ourselves...
Yes I guess now I can truly see why nations respect us for our words and deeds notbecause we like to use
our military to get what we want.
Please Don't get me wrong or take this out proportion- the US has done a lot of good in the world too.
But when it comes down to looking at the US track record it seems to me that the type of "respect" the
US gets from the world's nations is the same type of "respect" I gave to bullies in school.
~Esto Perpetua
Levi Cavener
> To: lfalen at turbonet.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:49:01 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
>
> Roger -
>
> It is not so much what "they" would do, as much as it is what our allies
> (what few there are) would consider us to be.
>
> We, the United States, once held the moral high ground. Nations around
> the world respected us, not for our military threat capabilities, but for
> our words and deeds. Nations eagerly supported us because we, as I had
> learned in twenty years of military service, led by example.
>
> We said what we meant and we meant what we said. We walked the walk.
> Enforcing standards of duty, responsibility, and (above all else)
> accountability was the yardstick we applied both at home and abroad. We
> placed diplomacy ahead of military response.
>
> Recently, the Department of Defense and Congress have attempted to regain
> a small portion of that moral high ground that the current administration
> has forsaken. The Department of Defense defined acceptable human
> intelligence gathering techniques and delineated methods of unacceptable
> torture. The Army accepted DoD's and established its own policies
> (policies adopted by Congress) concerning these definitions and
> unacceptable torture practices and published them in FM 2-22.3 (Human
> Intelligence Collector Operations), a manual I have posted to the Viz on
> three prior occasions. This manual specifically identifies waterboarding
> as an unacceptable torture practice.
>
> If you cannot accept the letter of this policy, perhaps you can understand
> its spirit.
>
> Seeya at Farmers' Market, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
> > On waerboarding
> > It should not be used as a routine interrogation procedure. In extreme
> case in order to
> save lives it could be used as a last resort. One of the 9/11 terrorists
> would not talk.
> When he was waterboarded, he sang. I think it was justified in this case.
> If that is the
> only way to obtain information that may save lives, it is justified. I
> would have an
> extremely guilty conscience if I did not use it and that omission
> resulted in multiply
> deaths. These are people who would behead you given the opportunity. If
> you would not use
> it in any case, I would question your priorities. You are not on the moral
> high ground
> here.
> > Roger
> > -----Original message-----
> > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:16:56 -0700
> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> >
> > >
> > > What else ould he mean?
> > >
> > > Maybe he's talking about our financial system. Both parties are busy
> shoring up private
> institutions with taxpayer money.
> > >
> > > Do you think that's socialism or full-blown communism, or is it part
> of restructuring
> the economy.
> > >
> > > I think your conclusion is one of the last I would leap to without
> evidence. I don't
> know how you can simultaneously make that leap and still require more time
> on
> waterboarding.
> > >
> > > Sunil
> > >
> > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:53:07 -0700
> > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > >
> > > > What else can he mean by completely restructuring the economy? Think
> about it.
> > > > Roger
> > > > -----Original message-----
> > > > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:44:06 -0700
> > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger,
> > > > >
> > > > > Seems to me you're making an enormous and unfounded leap to say
> that Obama is
> talking about 'full blown socialism if not communism.' Without foundation
> for that claim
> it's pretty ludicrous.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sunil
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:28:22 -0700
> > > > > > From: lfalen at turbonet.com
> > > > > > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] being fair and even
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sue doesn't think I'e been fair and even in the ridicule or
> poking fun at
> department. I think that Saundra's George Bush cartoon was a fair response
> to my kittens
> joke. I will give her another one. The radio talk show hosts have been
> belittling Obama
> for his " that is a higher pay grade than me" answer at the Saddleback
> Forum. I don't see
> a problem with it. He could have been referring to God. Who knows? In any
> case why waste
> time on it. There are more important thing to be worried about. For
> instance he said "It
> will be necessary to restructure the entire american economy. That
> translates to full
> blown socialism if not communism to me. That scares the hell out of me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roger
> > > > > >
> > > > > > =======================================================
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> > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > > =======================================================
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > =======================================================
> >
>
>
> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>
> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>
>
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