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<body class='hmmessage'><div style="text-align: left;"><br>"We, the United States, once held the moral high ground. Nations around <br></div><pre>the world respected us, not for our military threat capabilities, but for <br>our words and deeds."<br><br><br>Remind me just what nations have respected the United States because of our words and deeds and not the threat <br>of the United States bullying sovereign nations into getting our way. Perhaps the Japanese respect us because<br>of the westernization process that we forced on them following their defeat in WWII, and not because they fear<br>losing entire cities by nuclear weapons. Maybe Cuba respects us because we attempted to bring democracy back<br>to their nation after their revolution, and not because we try to assassinate <br>their leader or threaten nuclear annihilation when they don't play by our rules. Perhaps Nicaraguans enjoy<br>our government trying to undermine their sovereignty by financing US friendly contra groups in the hope a <br>revolution would occur that would bring a more US friendly government - Well at least we know Iran certainly was <br>excited to buy weapons from us to use and pay for the Nicaraguan cause at the same time. Maybe Vietnam<br>was excited to know that we don't respect their nation's sovereignty and are more than happy to <br>involve ourselves in foreign affairs that we are otherwise not involved in when we feel its appropriate. Maybe<br>Mexico really wanted to give away a substantial part of its land to our country, and it had nothing to do with <br>our country using its military to get what we wanted. The Philippines of course realize now that they just<br>weren't yet prepared to govern themselves after the Spanish American war and now respect us for looking <br>after their true interests. Surely Hawaiians appreciate and wanted to be part of<br>the United States - it had absolutely nothing to do US marines on the islands making sure US interests were<br>protected. Maybe the Native American nations truly wanted to become a part of the USA and were not offended<br>at all by the US violating treaty after treaty that we signed with them or using our military and violence <br>to insure compliance. And we all know how much the Middle East loves it when we involve ourselves...<br> Yes I guess now I can truly see why nations respect us for our words and deeds notbecause we like to use <br>our military to get what we want.<br><br><br>Please Don't get me wrong or take this out proportion- the US has done a lot of good in the world too. <br>But when it comes down to looking at the US track record it seems to me that the type of "respect" the <br>US gets from the world's nations is the same type of "respect" I gave to bullies in school.</pre> <br>
~Esto Perpetua<br>
<br>
Levi Cavener<br><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">> To: lfalen@turbonet.com; sunilramalingam@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> From: thansen@moscow.com<br>> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:49:01 +0000<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even<br>> <br>> Roger -<br>> <br>> It is not so much what "they" would do, as much as it is what our allies <br>> (what few there are) would consider us to be.<br>> <br>> We, the United States, once held the moral high ground. Nations around <br>> the world respected us, not for our military threat capabilities, but for <br>> our words and deeds. Nations eagerly supported us because we, as I had <br>> learned in twenty years of military service, led by example.<br>> <br>> We said what we meant and we meant what we said. We walked the walk. <br>> Enforcing standards of duty, responsibility, and (above all else) <br>> accountability was the yardstick we applied both at home and abroad. We <br>> placed diplomacy ahead of military response.<br>> <br>> Recently, the Department of Defense and Congress have attempted to regain <br>> a small portion of that moral high ground that the current administration <br>> has forsaken. The Department of Defense defined acceptable human <br>> intelligence gathering techniques and delineated methods of unacceptable <br>> torture. The Army accepted DoD's and established its own policies <br>> (policies adopted by Congress) concerning these definitions and <br>> unacceptable torture practices and published them in FM 2-22.3 (Human <br>> Intelligence Collector Operations), a manual I have posted to the Viz on <br>> three prior occasions. This manual specifically identifies waterboarding <br>> as an unacceptable torture practice.<br>> <br>> If you cannot accept the letter of this policy, perhaps you can understand <br>> its spirit.<br>> <br>> Seeya at Farmers' Market, Moscow.<br>> <br>> Tom Hansen<br>> Moscow, Idaho<br>> <br>> <br>> > On waerboarding<br>> > It should not be used as a routine interrogation procedure. In extreme <br>> case in order to<br>> save lives it could be used as a last resort. One of the 9/11 terrorists <br>> would not talk.<br>> When he was waterboarded, he sang. I think it was justified in this case. <br>> If that is the<br>> only way to obtain information that may save lives, it is justified. I <br>> would have an<br>> extremely guilty conscience if I did not use it and that omission <br>> resulted in multiply<br>> deaths. These are people who would behead you given the opportunity. If <br>> you would not use<br>> it in any case, I would question your priorities. You are not on the moral <br>> high ground<br>> here.<br>> > Roger<br>> > -----Original message-----<br>> > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam@hotmail.com<br>> > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:16:56 -0700<br>> > To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even<br>> > <br>> > > <br>> > > What else ould he mean?<br>> > > <br>> > > Maybe he's talking about our financial system. Both parties are busy <br>> shoring up private<br>> institutions with taxpayer money.<br>> > > <br>> > > Do you think that's socialism or full-blown communism, or is it part <br>> of restructuring<br>> the economy.<br>> > > <br>> > > I think your conclusion is one of the last I would leap to without <br>> evidence. I don't<br>> know how you can simultaneously make that leap and still require more time <br>> on<br>> waterboarding.<br>> > > <br>> > > Sunil<br>> > > <br>> > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:53:07 -0700<br>> > > > From: lfalen@turbonet.com<br>> > > > To: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even<br>> > > > <br>> > > > What else can he mean by completely restructuring the economy? Think <br>> about it.<br>> > > > Roger<br>> > > > -----Original message-----<br>> > > > From: Sunil Ramalingam sunilramalingam@hotmail.com<br>> > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:44:06 -0700<br>> > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] being fair and even<br>> > > > <br>> > > > > <br>> > > > > Roger,<br>> > > > > <br>> > > > > Seems to me you're making an enormous and unfounded leap to say <br>> that Obama is<br>> talking about 'full blown socialism if not communism.' Without foundation <br>> for that claim<br>> it's pretty ludicrous.<br>> > > > > <br>> > > > > Sunil<br>> > > > > <br>> > > > > > Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:28:22 -0700<br>> > > > > > From: lfalen@turbonet.com<br>> > > > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] being fair and even<br>> > > > > > <br>> > > > > > Sue doesn't think I'e been fair and even in the ridicule or <br>> poking fun at<br>> department. I think that Saundra's George Bush cartoon was a fair response <br>> to my kittens<br>> joke. I will give her another one. The radio talk show hosts have been <br>> belittling Obama<br>> for his " that is a higher pay grade than me" answer at the Saddleback <br>> Forum. I don't see<br>> a problem with it. He could have been referring to God. Who knows? In any <br>> case why waste<br>> time on it. There are more important thing to be worried about. For <br>> instance he said "It<br>> will be necessary to restructure the entire american economy. That <br>> translates to full<br>> blown socialism if not communism to me. That scares the hell out of me.<br>> > > > > > <br>> > > > > > Roger<br>> > > > > > <br>> > > > > > =======================================================<br>> > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > > > > > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > > > > =======================================================<br>> > > > > <br>> > > > > <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > <br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> > <br>> <br>> <br>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college <br>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."<br>> <br>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)<br>> <br>> <br>> ---------------------------------------------<br>> This message was sent by First Step Internet.<br>> http://www.fsr.com/<br>> <br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br></body>
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