[Vision2020] condemning rape

Saundra Lund sslund_2007 at verizon.net
Wed Apr 23 10:00:29 PDT 2008

Dear Mr. Crabtree,


With respect to #4 below, have you lost your mind (no disrespect intended)
or do you simply live in a parallel universe where no one else who gives a
rip about children would care to live?


Fact:  without a doubt, Doug Wilson knew of Steven James Sitler's heinous
crimes on 3/10/2005.  There has been speculation that Wilson orchestrated
Sitler's flight from this community to avoid contact with local law
enforcement, but we'll stick with facts here.


Fact:  the criminal complaint was filed 7/6/2005.


Fact:  depending on which Christ Church source you want to believe, church
members were extensively informed of Sitler's predation in our community no
later than November (that's from Wilson himself).  Other Christ Church
members claim to have known beforehand, but I'm content enough to use
Wilson's dates in this context.


Fact:  a very successful gag order was issued by Kirk hierarchy as evidenced
by the fact that while the Kirk congregation was made aware of Sitler's
predation in this and other communities, not a single member cared enough
about all the children in this community - the children of their neighbors -
to warn those of us not privy to Kirk HOH meetings that a monster had been
free to prey on and molest our children for some 18 months.  This from
people who had - and have continued to -- shrilly insisted that they are
good neighbors and members of the community.  Needless to say, their
kowtowing to that gag order makes hollow their demands for recognition as
good neighbors.


Fact:  outside the Kirk and the judicial system (which also remained
inexplicably silent), no one in the community was informed for eleven months
following his adjudication that this monster, who came to our community to
attend NSA, had trolled for child victims in our community.  The first news
article appeared in the Trib on 6/7/2006 with the Snooze quickly following
on the Trib's coattails 6/8/2006.  News coverage only happened after the
information was brought to light by others.


Fact:  compare and contrast this with news coverage of other non-Kirk local
sex offenders before and since, and it doesn't take a genius to realize that
Svengali Doug Wilson's gag order was successful beyond his wildest dream.


We will be voting on some key local offices later this year, and I for one
won't forget who played roles in withholding this vital community safety
information, nor will I forget that our local newspapers (such as they are)
have never quite been able to rise to the challenge of providing truly
important news in a timely manner.  But, I digress  J


So, let's get back to this part of what you wrote to Keely:

"4. Again, the story was indeed disseminated, just not in the manner that
would have made you the happiest. Are we noticing a trend here?"


If you think the dissemination factually outlined was adequate or
appropriate, I would suggest that you seek immediate medical attention to
have your head put back on your shoulders where it belongs rather than
letting it remain where the sun doesn't shine.  And, yes, we are noticing a
trend here:  for some completely unfathomable reason, you will make any
argument, no matter how blatantly false or outlandish, to defend the Kirk
while trying to make those who speak truth objects of ridicule.  Shame on


So, have at it - we all know  you will - let 'er rip, Mr. Crabtree.


First, though, I would remind you that you are a father with children you
nurtured, love, care about, and tried to protect while raising them, and you
only make yourself look the fool by continuing to defend the handling of the
Steven James Sitler horror.




Saundra Lund

Moscow, ID


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do

~ Edmund Burke


***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the


From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of g. crabtree
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:35 AM
To: keely emerinemix; Sue Hovey; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape


1. No change


2.It seems that your personal standard IS the issue since you go out of your
way to enumerate it and then take every opportunity to point out instances
where you are outraged at its not having been met. Unquestionably "horror,
outrage, grief, and humility" were expressed during the course of this
incident. Since you didn't detect any sack cloth and ash, nor any self
flagellation, it didn't quite meet your personal standard. Not enough to
satisfy Keely is not the same as not at all.


The cartoon you mention while perhaps being in questionable taste under the
circumstances hardly meets the qualification for "scatological."


3.Why not go door to door and notify every household in the greater Quad
Cities area? The churches mechanism for disseminating information is,
apparently, head of household meetings. Another case of just because it's
not done your way doesn't mean it wasn't done.


4. Again, the story was indeed disseminated, just not in the manner that
would have made you the happiest. Are we noticing a trend here?


5. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree here. Technically true is the
same as absolutely true. My memory is pretty good and I recall no moment
during the incident where it wasn't plain where the defendant went to


6. " I believe that....." Once again we're back to your personal opinion. As
I said before, good counsel can be had from a myriad of sources. A license
and a PhD do not give a person an exclusive franchise on good advise.


7. I can't imagine how questioning a blatantly false statement (Ms. Hovey's
original foolish remark) would give you the impression that "I don't like
girls." As a male, I am unqualified to comment on this topic? Perhaps you
should check in with my wife and two daughters for the straight skinny on
how much I don't like them. I keep them safely locked up in a pumpkin shell
in my back yard. Watch out for the dog. (he's a dude)


And the extra credit question's answer will have to be, for the most part,
no. I see nothing about this faith community that makes them any more or
less "objectionable" than any of the other congregations in our community
that I have nothing but respect for. Obviously, you can't say the same
thing. Why is it that only this group is singled out for your special brand
of scrutiny? It would seem to me that many denominations would fail to live
up to the Keely Mix personal standard.



----- Original Message ----- 

From: keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>  

To: g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>  ; Sue Hovey
<mailto:suehovey at moscow.com>  ; vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:07 PM

Subject: RE: [Vision2020] condemning rape


Once again, by the numbers, as you say:

1.  Wilson called the cops -- on that, we both agree.

2.  My "personal standard" for pastoral behavior during a rape scandal,
while reasonable, isn't the issue.  I'm thankful that Wilson has an
authority far, far above me who will judge his attitude.  As for specific
examples of sarcastic humor during what should have been a time of
repentance and self-reflection, I gave you one:  the cute little cartoon
about the young male "youth group leader" ogling a young, curvaceous girl.
I think I would, perhaps, have set aside my love of snicker-snicker,
sophomoric cartoon art about lusty male ministers if I were a pastor whose
congregation had been rocked by the rape of toddlers by one of its male
students at its classical Christian college.  

3.  Why not tell the women directly?  

4.  And why not tell the community?  The media's dissemination of the story
was shoddy and tepid.  The offender's home church was open and immediate
about printing his name and the nature of his crimes once those committed in
that community were revealed.  Not a word from the Kirk until the story
broke on Vision, courtesy of an outraged former congregant.

5.  Your recollection fails you here.  Wilson insisted the man was not a
member of the congregation.  Technically true, and yet patently false.

6.  I believe that an untrained minister who holds to the doctrines of
sexuality, patriarchy, submission and hierarchy that Wilson does should
offer no more than prayer and comfort, not counseling for sex offenses, and
that only after he humbly examines his own doctrinal foundations.  The man
had a licensed therapist in Lewiston.  That he had a  minister here in
Wilson is undisputed; the perpetrator may call him "pastor," but I certainly
wouldn't, and don't.

7.  "Girl-power Christianity"?  Good heavens.  This is my religious faith,
not a softball team.  Fortunately, though, my God loves girls who live in
His power.  It's guys like you who don't like us, and yet somehow we go on.

And a bonus question:  Is there anything -- ANYTHING -- that you've seen
from Christ Church or its ministries or elders or pastor that you've found
at all objectionable . . . ever?  



From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; suehovey at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:31:03 -0700

Ms. Mix, Thank you for response and benevolent wishes for my days progress.
While your post in no way provides an answer to the manner whereby a group
of men tolerated and protected sexual predators, (No surprise there. They
didn't and you couldn't) it does raise a question or two not the least of
which would have to be by what authority do you feel competent to set a
minimum standard for a biblical response? That aside, It seems to me the
incident WAS dealt with inside your parameters. By the numbers: 


1. No possible disagreement here.


2. Here it seems that it was your PERSONAL standard that was not met. To
assert that there was no expression of horror, grief, etc. is simply without
merit. That it didn't satisfy your standards is no surprise. In all
likelyhood nothing short of group immolation could have, I suspect. (I would
ask for a specific example of "scatological" sarcasm from B&M but I imagine
that it would arrive in a manner similar to Ms. Hovey's response to my
initial question, either not at all or far short of the mark.)


3. Do you really imagine that when the husbands and fathers were informed
that any of them thought it too inconsequential to mention to their wives?
Anything interesting at the head of household meeting, dear? Gee whiz, honey
there was something I was going to tell you about but its slipped my mind.
Oh well, what's for supper? I very much doubt that any variation of that
conversation took place.


4. It would be most unseemly (to say nothing of potentially illegal prior to
trial) for a pastor to hold some sort of a press conference in a situation
such as this. The media disseminated the story as is their job. 


5. I can't really speak to this issue since I have no first hand knowledge
but, my impression was that when asked it was made clear that the person in
question was a student at NSA and while not technically a member of the
congregation was most assuredly "one of theirs." Nothing unethical and no
pretending that there was no connection to the best of my recollection.


6. Woefully, breathtakingly, unqualified to offer council? Sage advise can
come from any number of sources. I very much doubt that his pastor offered
up any that was bad. Heck, even I could make a few suggestions that the
miscreant wouldn't go wrong by following.        


7. And here we come full circle. Why would anyone feel particularly
obligated to heed your "admonishment" with regard to this matter? Clearly
you and your particular version of girl power Christianity will never mesh
with the Kirk. Trying at every turn to tear it down utilizing innuendo,
falsehoods, and misrepresentations doesn't come across as particularly
Christ like either.


Thank you for the dialog and a pleasant afternoon to you,


----- Original Message ----- 

From: keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>  

To: Sue Hovey <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com>  ; g. crabtree
<mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>  ; vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:54 AM

Subject: RE: [Vision2020] condemning rape


Gary, you believe Sue engaged in character assassination and bigotry by
asserting that Christ Church consists of a group of patriarchal men willing
to tolerate, even protect, males in their congregation who are sexual
predators.  These are her words, not mine.  I agree with her general point,
but I don't really know how they would tolerate, even protect, another
sexual predator.  I only know how they acted when one was revealed.  And so
I'll propose a minimum standard for responsibly, Biblically, dealing with
active sexual predators who rape children in the congregation and perhaps

1.  Tell the police, which Wilson did. 
2.  Express horror, outrage, grief, and humility.  The public face of Christ
Church during this was defensive and arrogant; privately, on his blog,
Wilson continued the usual scatological, snarky sarcasm that he trades in so
richly.  Remember the "youth minister" cartoon?  In context or out, a real
knee-slapper, that.
3.  Then tell the mothers, who are usually the ones who would notice
trauma-driven behaviors or odd physical changes in their children, and tell
the fathers.  Wilson didn't.  The male heads of households were told; it was
up to them whether or not to bring the information home to their subordinate
4.  Tell the community.  Wilson didn't, even though the  perp lived in
Moscow and presumably emerged at some point from the Kirk social network.
5.  Don't deny that he's "one of yours."  Be honest here -- Wilson took
pains to point out that the man was not an official member of Christ Church
or Trinity Reformed.  The man studied in the Kirk's New St. Andrews,
attended weekly service at CC, lived in a Kirk family's home as a boarder in
a program overseen by Kirk elders, came to Moscow to be part of Christ
Church, and would have, prior to the crimes, been identified as a Christ
Church kind of guy.  I think that's what people mean and not the absence of
official enrollment when they say he was "from Christ Church."  I think that
honesty about the man's connection to your church fellowship is what people
mean by "ethical" and "straightforward."
6. As the justice system adjudicates the case, which it did here with
surprising results, be available to comfort the families and minister grace
to the offender.  Wilson believes he did that.  He also counseled the
predator, something he is woefully, breathtakingly, unqualified to do.
7.  Examine if there's anything in the pastor's teachings or beliefs that
might encourage bad behavior or misapprehends the Scriptures and doctrines
of the Church.  In response to my admonishment that the Kirk elders do so,
one of them, our pal Dale, simply responds by making fun of Tom Hansen.  I
think that wasn't quite what I meant by "sober reflection," and I'm pretty
sure Christ didn't.

OK, gc . . . have at it, and have a lovely day.



From: suehovey at moscow.com
To: jampot at roadrunner.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:26:16 -0700

A wildly reckless assertion!!!  Character assassination and bigotry?  Coming
from you, Gary, I would call it displacement.  


Sue H.      

----- Original Message ----- 

From: g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at roadrunner.com>  

To: Sue Hovey <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com>  ; keely emerinemix
<mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>  ; vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 3:13 PM

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape


I defy you to provide even a shred of documentation for the wildly reckless
assertion made in the final sentence of your post. It is my understanding
that when evidence of misconduct became known within the "congregation" in
question it was dealt with promptly and in an absolutely correct manner. To
claim anything else is unsupportable character assassination and bigotry. It
is also, unfortunately, par for the course with a certain group which prides
itself on its unfailing tolerance.



----- Original Message ----- 

From: Sue Hovey <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com>  

To: keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>  ; vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:14 PM

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape


Keely,  I appreciate that you read Dale's blog and keep us in the loop.
It's important we are called upon to remember a significant number of people
in this community are willing to twist a tragic issue and use it as a
bludgeon to attack those of us who define ourselves as liberal.  I think we
shouldn't be surprised this would be his issue now.  He's  representative of
a group of patriarchial men, willing to tolerate, even protect, males in
their congregation who are sexual predators.   


Sue H.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>  

To: vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:16 PM

Subject: [Vision2020] condemning rape



The Everlasting Blogstalker, Dale Courtney, laments today on his Right-Mind
blog that Moscow's liberals are quick to jump on the bandwagon of
disapproval of the recent revelations that young girls in the FLDS
polygamist cult in West Texas are routinely forced into sexual relationships
with older men who believe that these polygamous "celestial marriages" are
essential to the practice of their faith, while remaining silent about
things like young girls being forced to "marry" older men in some Muslim
cultures.  Dale believes that the shameful tolerance his liberal foes
exhibit toward the behavior of some Muslims is hypocritical in light of
their disgust over offshoot-Mormon group practices, and he, like a good
"Christian" libertarian man of chest, must make note of it.  It seems that
we liberals just can't muster any disapproval of Islam, so busy are we, I
suppose, hating groups that call themselves Christian.  

Certainly Dale's worldview is energized by the thought that he and his pals
are witnesses to the persecution of the Church from their vantage point of
those suffering under it.  It's a silly assertion, of course, as is his smug
denouncement of feminized, morally bankrupt liberals who pick and choose
their objects of outrage from a tortured position of ethical spinelessness.
I am a liberal; I know of no one, liberal or conservative, who isn't
disgusted by the reality of adult men who engage in sex with children.  I'm
not aware of anyone who thinks that religion excuses the horrors that men
visit upon their victims, whether that religion is a perversion of
Christianity or a perversion of Islam.  Because most of the people I know
are rational, decent people, they are angered by child rape and outraged
that it can be, and is, committed as a sort of religious expression.
Atheists and the religious are united in believing that no God would be
honored by inflicting horror on the little ones he created.

I don't know if Muhammed had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old
girl, as Dale asserts, just as I don't know if Joseph Smith slept with
underage girls.  My not being Muslim or Mormon, or part of any group that
claims to be the "true expression" of either, has nothing to do with the
sexual sin of the men each faith reveres as prophets.  I am much more
concerned about my own faith and the men who claim it, and who, as
Christians, perpetuate patriarchy, hierarchy, power, manipulation and sexism
in their homes, churches, and relationships.   If, for example, there were a
Christian church in town that had witnessed one or two specific instances of
their men preying on young children or teenage girls, I would expect that
that church would reflect on any connection between the rape committed by
their young students of patriarchy and power, sexism and sexuality, and the
practices and teaching that the predators received from their teachers.  I
would expect that that church would publicly repent of any gender-based
arrogance, hierarchy, or wielding of power it had exhibited.  I would hope
that its leaders would examine a theology that has as its origin the reality
of a post-Fall seizing of ungodly power and descent into violence, rather
than the redemptive, radical justice and equality ushered in by the Savior
they claim to worship.  I would pray that such a church would see that its
elevation of male power and privilege, its defense of patriarchy, its
practice of gender hierarchy and unilateral submission, and its defensive
clinging to the ways of the world and not the fruit of the Spirit are
sinful, reflecting the depotism of evil and not the gentleness of Christlike
love.  I would expect that.  

I would be disappointed.

And so I will lead the charge, if that is indeed  what Dale's asking for, by
announcing that this middle-aged, progressive, evangelical homemaker, and
everyone she knows, thinks men who sleep with girls are evil.  There.  Now
that the totality of liberal condemnation of rape and pedophilia has been
thusly offered to this erstwhile elder, let's see if he and his other
patriarchal heads of household pause and examine if the perpetuation of
sexual violence on the weak in the name of religion has more to do with bad
theology, teaching, and practice than with the perceived indifference of
Moscow's liberals.  It could be the start of an incredible spiritual
renewal, revolutionary in scope and profound in effect.  Or, Dale could just
write this off as the emotional blather of someone who just doesn't know her
place, a position that is probably a lot easier to undertake while enjoying
the Sabbath with other puny patriarchs.  

I guess we'll see . . . 



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