[Vision2020] condemning rape

Tom Hansen thansen at moscow.com
Wed Apr 23 05:57:00 PDT 2008

Excellent, Joe.

And if gc is struggling with the Sitler/Wilson timeline, perhaps this will 
help . . .


Kinda nasty, isn't it gc, when the facts get in the way, huh?

By the by:  I am still wondering if/when those fine upstanding gentlemen 
of the FLDS compound will step forward and defend the honor of their wives 
and children.

Seeya round town, Moscow.

Tom "who still believes that chivalry is not dead" Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

> A few things about the Sitler case.
> First, you keep contending, Gary, that authorities were told as soon as 
> possible but, given the discussion on V2020 shortly after the news hit, 
I have 
> my doubts. Wilson himself took part in that discussion but if you review 
> transcripts the timeline you are suggesting doesn’t add up.
> Forget the insults and general Wilson rhetoric, Gary, and give an 
> timeline. When did Wilson find out about Sitler's crimes? When was the 
> of-households meeting held? When did the police find out about Sitler's 
> crimes? When did the Moscow community find out about Sitler's crimes?
> If you can't state the actual dates of all four events, then you don't 
> know what you're talking about. Your testimony is based on faith and 
> more. If you do know what you're talking about, then just state the 
> I know for one thing: the difference between the first date and the last 
date is 
> enough for me to be concerned. And since we're talking about the safety 
> my own child, I don't care very much what you happen to think about it.
> Second, Wilson wrote a letter in defense of Sitler's release, suggesting 
that he 
> would council him even though he is not a trained councilor. I can 
accept that 
> he is a Pastor even though he has no seminary degree, or that he is a 
> philosopher even though he has no PhD, or even that he is an historian 
> though he has no degree in that area. 
> But don't you think that it is stretching the bounds of common sense to 
> that a man who has no formal training with pedophiles be allowed to 
> the early release of a known pedophile on the grounds that he would 
> him? Or do you think that anyone should be allowed to council a known 
> pedophile, regardless of his background or training?
> I’d be interested in your answer to these questions.
> Best, Dr. Joe
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote: 
> =============
> Now that you've gotten that nasty little spasm of "am not-you are" out 
of the way I hope
you feel better. Now how about you actually back up your imaginary claim? 
Please provide
the slimmest shred of evidence of "a group of patriarchal men, willing to 
tolerate, even
protect, males in their congregation who are sexual predators." I have a 
mighty strong
hunch that it will be an  inordinately long time coming and in the 
unlikely event it ever
should, won't come close to supporting your reckless rhetoric.
> g
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Sue Hovey 
>   To: g. crabtree ; keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:26 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
>   A wildly reckless assertion!!!  Character assassination and bigotry?  
Coming from you,
Gary, I would call it displacement.  
>   Sue H.      
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>     From: g. crabtree 
>     To: Sue Hovey ; keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
>     Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 3:13 PM
>     Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
>     I defy you to provide even a shred of documentation for the wildly 
reckless assertion
made in the final sentence of your post. It is my understanding that when 
evidence of
misconduct became known within the "congregation" in question it was dealt 
with promptly
and in an absolutely correct manner. To claim anything else is 
unsupportable character
assassination and bigotry. It is also, unfortunately, par for the course 
with a certain
group which prides itself on its unfailing tolerance.
>     g
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: Sue Hovey 
>       To: keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
>       Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:14 PM
>       Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
>       Keely,  I appreciate that you read Dale's blog and keep us in the 
loop.  It's
important we are called upon to remember a significant number of people in 
this community
are willing to twist a tragic issue and use it as a bludgeon to attack 
those of us who
define ourselves as liberal.  I think we shouldn't be surprised this would 
be his issue
now.  He's  representative of a group of patriarchial men, willing to 
tolerate, even
protect, males in their congregation who are sexual predators.   
>       Sue H.
>         ----- Original Message ----- 
>         From: keely emerinemix 
>         To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
>         Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:16 PM
>         Subject: [Vision2020] condemning rape
>         Visionaires,
>         The Everlasting Blogstalker, Dale Courtney, laments today on his 
Right-Mind blog
that Moscow's liberals are quick to jump on the bandwagon of disapproval 
of the recent
revelations that young girls in the FLDS polygamist cult in West Texas are 
forced into sexual relationships with older men who believe that these 
"celestial marriages" are essential to the practice of their faith, while 
remaining silent
about things like young girls being forced to "marry" older men in some 
Muslim cultures. 
Dale believes that the shameful tolerance his liberal foes exhibit toward 
the behavior of
some Muslims is hypocritical in light of their disgust over offshoot-
Mormon group
practices, and he, like a good "Christian" libertarian man of chest, must 
make note of it.
 It seems that we liberals just can't muster any disapproval of Islam, so 
busy are we, I
suppose, hating groups that call themselves Christian.  
>         Certainly Dale's worldview is energized by the thought that he 
and his pals are
witnesses to the persecution of the Church from their vantage point of 
those suffering
under it.  It's a silly assertion, of course, as is his smug denouncement 
of feminized,
morally bankrupt liberals who pick and choose their objects of outrage 
from a tortured
position of ethical spinelessness.  I am a liberal; I know of no one, 
liberal or
conservative, who isn't disgusted by the reality of adult men who engage 
in sex with
children.  I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that religion excuses the 
horrors that men
visit upon their victims, whether that religion is a perversion of 
Christianity or a
perversion of Islam.  Because most of the people I know are rational, 
decent people, they
are angered by child rape and outraged that it can be, and is, committed 
as a sort of
religious expression.  Atheists and the religious are united in believing 
that no God
would be honored by inflicting horror on the little ones he created.
>         I don't know if Muhammed had a sexual relationship with a nine-
year-old girl, as
Dale asserts, just as I don't know if Joseph Smith slept with underage 
girls.  My not
being Muslim or Mormon, or part of any group that claims to be the "true 
expression" of
either, has nothing to do with the sexual sin of the men each faith 
reveres as prophets. 
I am much more concerned about my own faith and the men who claim it, and 
who, as
Christians, perpetuate patriarchy, hierarchy, power, manipulation and 
sexism in their
homes, churches, and relationships.   If, for example, there were a 
Christian church in
town that had witnessed one or two specific instances of their men preying 
on young
children or teenage girls, I would expect that that church would reflect 
on any connection
between the rape committed by their young students of patriarchy and 
power, sexism and
sexuality, and the practices and teaching that the predators received from 
their teachers.
 I would expect that that church would publicly repent of any gender-based 
hierarchy, or wielding of power it had exhibited.  I would hope that its 
leaders would
examine a theology that has as its origin the reality of a post-Fall 
seizing of ungodly
power and descent into violence, rather than the redemptive, radical 
justice and equality
ushered in by the Savior they claim to worship.  I would pray that such a 
church would see
that its elevation of male power and privilege, its defense of patriarchy, 
its practice of
gender hierarchy and unilateral submission, and its defensive clinging to 
the ways of the
world and not the fruit of the Spirit are sinful, reflecting the depotism 
of evil and not
the gentleness of Christlike love.  I would expect that.  
>         I would be disappointed.
>         And so I will lead the charge, if that is indeed  what Dale's 
asking for, by
announcing that this middle-aged, progressive, evangelical homemaker, and 
everyone she
knows, thinks men who sleep with girls are evil.  There.  Now that the 
totality of liberal
condemnation of rape and pedophilia has been thusly offered to this 
erstwhile elder, let's
see if he and his other patriarchal heads of household pause and examine 
if the
perpetuation of sexual violence on the weak in the name of religion has 
more to do with
bad theology, teaching, and practice than with the perceived indifference 
of Moscow's
liberals.  It could be the start of an incredible spiritual renewal, 
revolutionary in
scope and profound in effect.  Or, Dale could just write this off as the 
emotional blather
of someone who just doesn't know her place, a position that is probably a 
lot easier to
undertake while enjoying the Sabbath with other puny patriarchs.  
>         I guess we'll see . . . 
>         Keely
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