[Vision2020] condemning rape

Wed Apr 23 01:30:53 PDT 2008

A few things about the Sitler case.

First, you keep contending, Gary, that authorities were told as soon as 
possible but, given the discussion on V2020 shortly after the news hit, I have 
my doubts. Wilson himself took part in that discussion but if you review those 
transcripts the timeline you are suggesting doesn’t add up.

Forget the insults and general Wilson rhetoric, Gary, and give an explicit 
timeline. When did Wilson find out about Sitler's crimes? When was the head-
of-households meeting held? When did the police find out about Sitler's 
crimes? When did the Moscow community find out about Sitler's crimes?

If you can't state the actual dates of all four events, then you don't really 
know what you're talking about. Your testimony is based on faith and nothing 
more. If you do know what you're talking about, then just state the dates.

I know for one thing: the difference between the first date and the last date is 
enough for me to be concerned. And since we're talking about the safety of 
my own child, I don't care very much what you happen to think about it.

Second, Wilson wrote a letter in defense of Sitler's release, suggesting that he 
would council him even though he is not a trained councilor. I can accept that 
he is a Pastor even though he has no seminary degree, or that he is a 
philosopher even though he has no PhD, or even that he is an historian even 
though he has no degree in that area. 

But don't you think that it is stretching the bounds of common sense to allow 
that a man who has no formal training with pedophiles be allowed to advocate 
the early release of a known pedophile on the grounds that he would council 
him? Or do you think that anyone should be allowed to council a known 
pedophile, regardless of his background or training?

I’d be interested in your answer to these questions.

Best, Dr. Joe

---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote: 

=============
Now that you've gotten that nasty little spasm of "am not-you are" out of the way I hope you feel better. Now how about you actually back up your imaginary claim? Please provide the slimmest shred of evidence of "a group of patriarchal men, willing to tolerate, even protect, males in their congregation who are sexual predators." I have a mighty strong hunch that it will be an  inordinately long time coming and in the unlikely event it ever should, won't come close to supporting your reckless rhetoric.

g
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Sue Hovey 
  To: g. crabtree ; keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape

  A wildly reckless assertion!!!  Character assassination and bigotry?  Coming from you, Gary, I would call it displacement.  

  Sue H.      
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: g. crabtree 
    To: Sue Hovey ; keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
    Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 3:13 PM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape

    I defy you to provide even a shred of documentation for the wildly reckless assertion made in the final sentence of your post. It is my understanding that when evidence of misconduct became known within the "congregation" in question it was dealt with promptly and in an absolutely correct manner. To claim anything else is unsupportable character assassination and bigotry. It is also, unfortunately, par for the course with a certain group which prides itself on its unfailing tolerance.

    g
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Sue Hovey 
      To: keely emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
      Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:14 PM
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape

      Keely,  I appreciate that you read Dale's blog and keep us in the loop.  It's important we are called upon to remember a significant number of people in this community are willing to twist a tragic issue and use it as a bludgeon to attack those of us who define ourselves as liberal.  I think we shouldn't be surprised this would be his issue now.  He's  representative of a group of patriarchial men, willing to tolerate, even protect, males in their congregation who are sexual predators.   

      Sue H.
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: keely emerinemix 
        To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
        Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:16 PM
        Subject: [Vision2020] condemning rape

        Visionaires,

        The Everlasting Blogstalker, Dale Courtney, laments today on his Right-Mind blog that Moscow's liberals are quick to jump on the bandwagon of disapproval of the recent revelations that young girls in the FLDS polygamist cult in West Texas are routinely forced into sexual relationships with older men who believe that these polygamous "celestial marriages" are essential to the practice of their faith, while remaining silent about things like young girls being forced to "marry" older men in some Muslim cultures.  Dale believes that the shameful tolerance his liberal foes exhibit toward the behavior of some Muslims is hypocritical in light of their disgust over offshoot-Mormon group practices, and he, like a good "Christian" libertarian man of chest, must make note of it.  It seems that we liberals just can't muster any disapproval of Islam, so busy are we, I suppose, hating groups that call themselves Christian.  

        Certainly Dale's worldview is energized by the thought that he and his pals are witnesses to the persecution of the Church from their vantage point of those suffering under it.  It's a silly assertion, of course, as is his smug denouncement of feminized, morally bankrupt liberals who pick and choose their objects of outrage from a tortured position of ethical spinelessness.  I am a liberal; I know of no one, liberal or conservative, who isn't disgusted by the reality of adult men who engage in sex with children.  I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that religion excuses the horrors that men visit upon their victims, whether that religion is a perversion of Christianity or a perversion of Islam.  Because most of the people I know are rational, decent people, they are angered by child rape and outraged that it can be, and is, committed as a sort of religious expression.  Atheists and the religious are united in believing that no God would be honored by inflicting horror on the little ones he created.

        I don't know if Muhammed had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl, as Dale asserts, just as I don't know if Joseph Smith slept with underage girls.  My not being Muslim or Mormon, or part of any group that claims to be the "true expression" of either, has nothing to do with the sexual sin of the men each faith reveres as prophets.  I am much more concerned about my own faith and the men who claim it, and who, as Christians, perpetuate patriarchy, hierarchy, power, manipulation and sexism in their homes, churches, and relationships.   If, for example, there were a Christian church in town that had witnessed one or two specific instances of their men preying on young children or teenage girls, I would expect that that church would reflect on any connection between the rape committed by their young students of patriarchy and power, sexism and sexuality, and the practices and teaching that the predators received from their teachers.  I would expect that that church would publicly repent of any gender-based arrogance, hierarchy, or wielding of power it had exhibited.  I would hope that its leaders would examine a theology that has as its origin the reality of a post-Fall seizing of ungodly power and descent into violence, rather than the redemptive, radical justice and equality ushered in by the Savior they claim to worship.  I would pray that such a church would see that its elevation of male power and privilege, its defense of patriarchy, its practice of gender hierarchy and unilateral submission, and its defensive clinging to the ways of the world and not the fruit of the Spirit are sinful, reflecting the depotism of evil and not the gentleness of Christlike love.  I would expect that.  

        I would be disappointed.

        And so I will lead the charge, if that is indeed  what Dale's asking for, by announcing that this middle-aged, progressive, evangelical homemaker, and everyone she knows, thinks men who sleep with girls are evil.  There.  Now that the totality of liberal condemnation of rape and pedophilia has been thusly offered to this erstwhile elder, let's see if he and his other patriarchal heads of household pause and examine if the perpetuation of sexual violence on the weak in the name of religion has more to do with bad theology, teaching, and practice than with the perceived indifference of Moscow's liberals.  It could be the start of an incredible spiritual renewal, revolutionary in scope and profound in effect.  Or, Dale could just write this off as the emotional blather of someone who just doesn't know her place, a position that is probably a lot easier to undertake while enjoying the Sabbath with other puny patriarchs.  

        I guess we'll see . . . 

        Keely

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