[Vision2020] condemning rape

keely emerinemix kjajmix1 at msn.com
Tue Apr 22 21:07:24 PDT 2008

Once again, by the numbers, as you say:

1.  Wilson called the cops -- on that, we both agree.

2.  My "personal standard" for pastoral behavior during a rape scandal, while reasonable, isn't the issue.  I'm thankful that Wilson has an authority far, far above me who will judge his attitude.  As for specific examples of sarcastic humor during what should have been a time of repentance and self-reflection, I gave you one:  the cute little cartoon about the young male "youth group leader" ogling a young, curvaceous girl.  I think I would, perhaps, have set aside my love of snicker-snicker, sophomoric cartoon art about lusty male ministers if I were a pastor whose congregation had been rocked by the rape of toddlers by one of its male students at its classical Christian college.  

3.  Why not tell the women directly?  

4.  And why not tell the community?  The media's dissemination of the story was shoddy and tepid.  The offender's home church was open and immediate about printing his name and the nature of his crimes once those committed in that community were revealed.  Not a word from the Kirk until the story broke on Vision, courtesy of an outraged former congregant.

5.  Your recollection fails you here.  Wilson insisted the man was not a member of the congregation.  Technically true, and yet patently false.

6.  I believe that an untrained minister who holds to the doctrines of sexuality, patriarchy, submission and hierarchy that Wilson does should offer no more than prayer and comfort, not counseling for sex offenses, and that only after he humbly examines his own doctrinal foundations.  The man had a licensed therapist in Lewiston.  That he had a  minister here in Wilson is undisputed; the perpetrator may call him "pastor," but I certainly wouldn't, and don't.

7.  "Girl-power Christianity"?  Good heavens.  This is my religious faith, not a softball team.  Fortunately, though, my God loves girls who live in His power.  It's guys like you who don't like us, and yet somehow we go on.

And a bonus question:  Is there anything -- ANYTHING -- that you've seen from Christ Church or its ministries or elders or pastor that you've found at all objectionable . . . ever?  


From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; suehovey at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:31:03 -0700

Ms. Mix, Thank you for response and benevolent wishes for 
my days progress. While your post in no way provides an answer to the 
manner whereby a group of men tolerated and protected sexual predators, (No 
surprise there. They didn't and you couldn't) it does raise a question or two 
not the least of which would have to be by what authority do you feel competent 
to set a minimum standard for a biblical response? That aside, It seems to me 
the incident WAS dealt with inside your parameters. By the 
1. No possible disagreement here.
2. Here it seems that it was your PERSONAL standard 
that was not met. To assert that there was no expression of horror, grief, etc. 
is simply without merit. That it didn't satisfy your standards is no 
surprise. In all likelyhood nothing short of group immolation could have, I 
suspect. (I would ask for a specific example of "scatological" sarcasm 
from B&M but I imagine that it would arrive in a manner similar 
to Ms. Hovey's response to my initial question, either not at all or far 
short of the mark.)
3. Do you really imagine that when the husbands and 
fathers were informed that any of them thought it too inconsequential to mention 
to their wives? Anything interesting at the head of household meeting, 
dear? Gee whiz, honey there was something I was going to tell you about but its 
slipped my mind. Oh well, what's for supper? I very much doubt that any 
variation of that conversation took place.
4. It would be most unseemly (to say nothing of 
potentially illegal prior to trial) for a pastor to hold some sort of a press 
conference in a situation such as this. The media disseminated the story as is 
their job. 
5. I can't really speak to this issue since I have no 
first hand knowledge but, my impression was that when asked it was made clear 
that the person in question was a student at NSA and while not technically a 
member of the congregation was most assuredly "one of theirs." Nothing unethical 
and no pretending that there was no connection to the best of my 
6. Woefully, breathtakingly, unqualified 
to offer council? Sage advise can come from any number of sources. I very 
much doubt that his pastor offered up any that was bad. Heck, even I could make 
a few suggestions that the miscreant wouldn't go wrong by 
7. And here we come full circle. Why would anyone feel 
particularly obligated to heed your "admonishment" with regard to this matter? 
Clearly you and your particular version of girl power Christianity will 
never mesh with the Kirk. Trying at every turn to tear it down utilizing 
innuendo, falsehoods, and misrepresentations doesn't come across as 
particularly Christ like either.
Thank you for the dialog and a pleasant afternoon to 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  keely emerinemix 
  To: Sue Hovey ; g. 
  crabtree ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:54 
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] condemning 
Gary, you believe Sue engaged in character assassination and 
  bigotry by asserting that Christ Church consists of a group of patriarchal men 
  willing to tolerate, even protect, males in their congregation who are sexual 
  predators.  These are her words, not mine.  I agree with her general 
  point, but I don't really know how they would tolerate, even protect, another 
  sexual predator.  I only know how they acted when one was revealed.  
  And so I'll propose a minimum standard for responsibly, Biblically, dealing 
  with active sexual predators who rape children in the congregation and perhaps 

1.  Tell the police, which Wilson did. 
  Express horror, outrage, grief, and humility.  The public face of Christ 
  Church during this was defensive and arrogant; privately, on his blog, Wilson 
  continued the usual scatological, snarky sarcasm that he trades in so 
  richly.  Remember the "youth minister" cartoon?  In context or out, 
  a real knee-slapper, that.
3.  Then tell the mothers, who are usually 
  the ones who would notice trauma-driven behaviors or odd physical changes in 
  their children, and tell the fathers.  Wilson didn't.  The male 
  heads of households were told; it was up to them whether or not to bring the 
  information home to their subordinate wives.
4.  Tell the 
  community.  Wilson didn't, even though the  perp lived in Moscow and 
  presumably emerged at some point from the Kirk social network.
  Don't deny that he's "one of yours."  Be honest here -- Wilson took pains 
  to point out that the man was not an official member of Christ Church or 
  Trinity Reformed.  The man studied in the Kirk's New St. Andrews, 
  attended weekly service at CC, lived in a Kirk family's home as a boarder in a 
  program overseen by Kirk elders, came to Moscow to be part of Christ Church, 
  and would have, prior to the crimes, been identified as a Christ Church kind 
  of guy.  I think that's what people mean and not the absence of official 
  enrollment when they say he was "from Christ Church."  I think that 
  honesty about the man's connection to your church fellowship is what people 
  mean by "ethical" and "straightforward."
6. As the justice system 
  adjudicates the case, which it did here with surprising results, be available 
  to comfort the families and minister grace to the offender.  Wilson 
  believes he did that.  He also counseled the predator, something he is 
  woefully, breathtakingly, unqualified to do.
7.  Examine if there's 
  anything in the pastor's teachings or beliefs that might encourage bad 
  behavior or misapprehends the Scriptures and doctrines of the Church.  In 
  response to my admonishment that the Kirk elders do so, one of them, our pal 
  Dale, simply responds by making fun of Tom Hansen.  I think that wasn't 
  quite what I meant by "sober reflection," and I'm pretty sure Christ 

OK, gc . . . have at it, and have a lovely 


    From: suehovey at moscow.com
To: jampot at roadrunner.com; kjajmix1 at msn.com; 
    vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape
    Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:26:16 -0700


    A wildly reckless 
    assertion!!!  Character assassination and 
    bigotry?  Coming from you, Gary, I would call it 
    Sue H.      
      Original Message ----- 
      Hovey ; keely 
      emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
      Monday, April 21, 2008 3:13 PM
      Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape

      I defy you to provide even a shred of documentation 
      for the wildly reckless assertion made in the final sentence of your post. 
      It is my understanding that when evidence of misconduct became known 
      within the "congregation" in question it was dealt with promptly and in an 
      absolutely correct manner. To claim anything else is unsupportable 
      character assassination and bigotry. It is also, unfortunately, par for 
      the course with a certain group which prides itself on its unfailing 
        Original Message ----- 
        emerinemix ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
        Monday, April 21, 2008 12:14 PM
        Re: [Vision2020] condemning rape

        Keely,  I appreciate that you read Dale's 
        blog and keep us in the loop.  It's important we are 
        called upon to remember a significant number of people in this community 
        are willing to twist a tragic issue and use it as a 
        bludgeon to attack those of us who define ourselves as 
        liberal.  I think we shouldn't be surprised this would be his issue 
        now.  He's  representative of a group of patriarchial 
        men, willing to tolerate, even protect, males in their 
        congregation who are sexual 
        Sue H.
          Original Message ----- 
          vision2020 at moscow.com 
          Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:16 PM
          [Vision2020] condemning rape

The Everlasting Blogstalker, Dale 
          Courtney, laments today on his Right-Mind blog that Moscow's liberals 
          are quick to jump on the bandwagon of disapproval of the recent 
          revelations that young girls in the FLDS polygamist cult in West Texas 
          are routinely forced into sexual relationships with older men who 
          believe that these polygamous "celestial marriages" are essential to 
          the practice of their faith, while remaining silent about things like 
          young girls being forced to "marry" older men in some Muslim 
          cultures.  Dale believes that the shameful tolerance his liberal 
          foes exhibit toward the behavior of some Muslims is hypocritical in 
          light of their disgust over offshoot-Mormon group practices, and he, 
          like a good "Christian" libertarian man of chest, must make note of 
          it.  It seems that we liberals just can't muster any disapproval 
          of Islam, so busy are we, I suppose, hating groups that call 
          themselves Christian.  

Certainly Dale's worldview is 
          energized by the thought that he and his pals are witnesses to the 
          persecution of the Church from their vantage point of those suffering 
          under it.  It's a silly assertion, of course, as is his smug 
          denouncement of feminized, morally bankrupt liberals who pick and 
          choose their objects of outrage from a tortured position of ethical 
          spinelessness.  I am a liberal; I know of no one, liberal or 
          conservative, who isn't disgusted by the reality of adult men who 
          engage in sex with children.  I'm not aware of anyone who thinks 
          that religion excuses the horrors that men visit upon their victims, 
          whether that religion is a perversion of Christianity or a perversion 
          of Islam.  Because most of the people I know are rational, decent 
          people, they are angered by child rape and outraged that it can be, 
          and is, committed as a sort of religious expression.  Atheists 
          and the religious are united in believing that no God would be honored 
          by inflicting horror on the little ones he created.

I don't 
          know if Muhammed had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl, 
          as Dale asserts, just as I don't know if Joseph Smith slept with 
          underage girls.  My not being Muslim or Mormon, or part of any 
          group that claims to be the "true expression" of either, has nothing 
          to do with the sexual sin of the men each faith reveres as 
          prophets.  I am much more concerned about my own faith and the 
          men who claim it, and who, as Christians, perpetuate patriarchy, 
          hierarchy, power, manipulation and sexism in their homes, churches, 
          and relationships.   If, for example, there were a Christian 
          church in town that had witnessed one or two specific instances of 
          their men preying on young children or teenage girls, I would expect 
          that that church would reflect on any connection between the rape 
          committed by their young students of patriarchy and power, sexism and 
          sexuality, and the practices and teaching that the predators received 
          from their teachers.  I would expect that that church would 
          publicly repent of any gender-based arrogance, hierarchy, or wielding 
          of power it had exhibited.  I would hope that its leaders would 
          examine a theology that has as its origin the reality of a post-Fall 
          seizing of ungodly power and descent into violence, rather than the 
          redemptive, radical justice and equality ushered in by the Savior they 
          claim to worship.  I would pray that such a church would see that 
          its elevation of male power and privilege, its defense of patriarchy, 
          its practice of gender hierarchy and unilateral submission, and its 
          defensive clinging to the ways of the world and not the fruit of the 
          Spirit are sinful, reflecting the depotism of evil and not the 
          gentleness of Christlike love.  I would expect that.  

I would be disappointed.

And so I will lead the charge, 
          if that is indeed  what Dale's asking for, by announcing that 
          this middle-aged, progressive, evangelical homemaker, and everyone she 
          knows, thinks men who sleep with girls are evil.  There.  
          Now that the totality of liberal condemnation of rape and pedophilia 
          has been thusly offered to this erstwhile elder, let's see if he and 
          his other patriarchal heads of household pause and examine if the 
          perpetuation of sexual violence on the weak in the name of religion 
          has more to do with bad theology, teaching, and practice than with the 
          perceived indifference of Moscow's liberals.  It could be the 
          start of an incredible spiritual renewal, revolutionary in scope and 
          profound in effect.  Or, Dale could just write this off as the 
          emotional blather of someone who just doesn't know her place, a 
          position that is probably a lot easier to undertake while enjoying the 
          Sabbath with other puny patriarchs.  

I guess we'll see . 
          . . 


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