[Vision2020] What is Jeff talking about? (was something else)

Tue Oct 30 13:13:49 PDT 2007

Thanks for the post, Matt. 

I don't think that I've made anything up. If you could give a specific example, 
I'd appreciate it. Nor do I think I insulted Jeff or anyone, other than Crabtree, 
as much as you might think. Read the posts carefully – some of the points are 
conditional, borrowing some of Jeff's own tricks, some of them are just more 
explicit forms of what I perceived as similar insults directed toward me.

I have a nasty habit of treating people exactly how they treat me. If they are 
nice to me, I'm nice to them; if they are rude to me, I'm rude to them; if they 
insult me, I insult back. I won't make fun of Crabtree’s job, say, or call him 
names over an extended period of time -- say more than a week -- so I have 
my limits. Nonetheless, the strategy is unfortunate since often it plays into the 
hands of a bully like Crabtree. He insults me, I insult back and my insult 
shows up on Dale's website. And for whatever reason, conservatives can get 
away with insults in a way that liberals cannot.

I'm glad that you think that people shouldn't say that the MCA is anti-growth 
but the fact is that a LOT of GMA folks are saying it and extending it to apply 
to MCA supported candidates. I see it everywhere. Jeff is just one example. 
Even though I've pointed out the fallacy -- 'no' means 'not any' thus 'no 
growth' is false; what is true is 'some but not all growth,' so 'any and all 
growth', the laissez faire approach, is the extreme one. Yet Jeff still suggests 
that MCA candidates are anti-growth. Even Area Man Dan has said as much in 
response to questions about water issues, where he claimed that the current 
council has used water as an excuse to prevent growth. I don't see why I 
should let those attacks go unanswered. It would appear to put our side at a 
disadvantage.

Jeff thinks I called him a liar. What I said was that he is spreading a lie, which 
is a bit different. Still, it is false to say that MCA candidates are "no growth," 
as I point out above. To continue to say it, or to suggest it, while knowing that 
it is false is spreading a lie. Maybe this offends Jeff but I am just telling it like 
it is.

Also, you are mixing up two different things in your post. Am I a jackass to 
Crabtree and to Jeff? Yes. Are they jackasses to me? Yes. On this score we're 
equal. I treat folks like they treat me.

What I think is interesting is that you don't see Jeff's insults to me, or at least 
you didn’t say anything about them. Just to use one example, he made a 
standard reference to philosophies other than is own as being nothing more 
than discussions of angels dancing on the heads of pins. This is a dismissive, 
insulting response often directed at philosophers and other academics, in this 
case intended to undermine my comments and intelligence with one full 
swoop. Likely it is something that you would not note but, in the context of a 
political debate, it is jackass politics at its best. He doesn't have to respond to 
my questions, my concerns because I'm just talking about angels dancing on 
the heads of pins! Isn't it lovely!

In a way I can understand how you might spot my being a jackass sooner 
than Jeff's, since what I say to him might dig deep, might hurt you but what 
he says to me you might not notice. It might even seem funny to you. I had 
an exchange off list with Roger Falen where he told me that he thought that 
Crabtree's posts to me were funny. Making fun of my name, my job, etc. was 
funny to him. I understand why you might not notice how offensive Crabtree 
and Jeff are to me. We are each a bit blind when it comes to insults directed 
toward the other side.

If you had noticed that Jeff insulted me, you might have said something like 
"Yeah, Jeff was a jackass to you but that doesn't mean you should be a 
jackass to him, so stop." And, in fact, folks like Bruce Livingston have said 
just that to me off list. Also, if you read Bruce's post to Jeff you'll note a not 
so subtle jab at me suggesting agreeing with Jeff name-calling has no place 
on V2020.

Herein lies the second issue that you conflate with the first. There have been 
numerous occasions when progressives have criticized other progressives on 
V2020. As I noted, there was a recent, subtle instance in which Bruce 
criticized me -- which, as you point out, I deserved. A while ago, before I 
came to hate him, I stuck up for Crabtree when people said that his business 
should be boycotted and said that this is out of bounds. There are other 
examples, too, and I've seen Sunil, Keeley, and others do the same.

But I have NEVER seen Jeff, Crabtree, or Donovan, or any conservative 
openly criticized by another conservative in public. I have never even seen a 
conservative criticize the rhetoric of Doug Wilson or Dale Courtney. It is as if 
conservatives think that, when other conservatives are speaking, anything 
goes.

Yesterday a man from NSA ran around town with a sign that read "VOTE FOR 
BIGOTS" mentioning the names of the three candidates supported by the 
MCA. Yesterday in the Daily News Shelly Bennett implied that the MCA council 
has "persecuted a religious organization." (The timing of these two events is 
interesting but I won't go there.) Thus far NO conservatives have said that 
these actions are out of bounds. I'll bet none do after this post. I challenge 
you and others to prove me wrong.

I believe that in politics your opponents make up the rules. Until I hear some 
criticism of the above antics, it seems like I have a lot further to go before 
I'm out of bounds.

Thus, in response to your question -- When will I stop being a jackass? -- the 
answer might be: Next Wednesday.

Again, I really do appreciate the post! I think it is ironic that you sent it after I 
already stopped posting to Jeff! I left some questions unanswered but, 
honestly, it is hard for me to engage with folks who think that my job consists 
of talking about angels dancing on the head of pins, so perhaps he'll forgive 
me.

Best, Joe

---- Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com> wrote: 

=============

Joe,

About a week ago you confronted me about G. Crabtree. How much of an ass he is and how I don't "pipe down on him". I told you I don't condemn his or your actions(name calling that is). Then I saw you do it to me in private. Oh well, hey I have thicker skin. Now you, again are doing it to Jeff. I have closely watched this whole thing unfold and again it is you my friend, with the nasty tones. When will your little pompous antics end? 

If you want to attack me again, well go for it. Let me spare you though.
Last week, I had mentioned that I had a client who had a 10K yard and I mentioned that he was a customer of mine. A MCA member as well. This member I called a hypocrite because of his water usage on his yard, or future usage. Ringing a bell? ANyways, I was out of line. This man has done nothing to improve Moscow. We can all improve our lives and better this world, but for me to come down on this man was unjust. A moment I am not proud of. 

However, I still don't condone calling the GMA candidates water hoards. These men are also trying to better our community. If you don't want to vote for the GMA guys then don't. Just don't make shit up. Just like the fact that MCA is isn't anti growth. 

Matt

> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 02:26:55 -0700
> From: joekc at adelphia.net
> To: jeffh at moscow.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What is Jeff talking about? (was something else)
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I wanted to run for election but I didn't. Why? I'm unable to get into it with 
> attack dogs like Crabtree. I might run one day but right now I'm not ready.
> 
> Likewise, you are not ready to be treasurer for a campaign.
> 
> I asked you an honest question: How are you going to keep Moscow from 
> smelling (and looking) like Lewiston? This is what you wrote:
> 
> After considerable thought, and given the 
> constraints in real estate that exist in Moscow 
> (no need to preclude businesses that couldn't 
> locate in Moscow because there is no room for 
> them or they require infrastructure that we don't 
> have), heavy manufacturing (large heavy 
> equipment, aircraft, large-scale auto) would 
> probably not be a good fit.  That said, a custom 
> manufacturer - say manufacturing small hybrid 
> cars, wind turbines, solar energy systems, ATV's, 
> bicycles, garden power tools, farm implements to 
> serve Palouse farming specifically could fit very 
> nicely.
> 
> This is not an answer to the question. It was an answer to some other 
> question but not this one. I asked the question again and you just repeated it.
> 
> Telling me that certain businesses won't fit doesn't answer it. Your laze faire 
> economic views won't allow you to prevent it from happening either. Why not 
> just move to Lewiston instead of moving Lewiston here?
> 
> You can say what you want about me but my name is not on any candidate's 
> sign. And if you are going to continue to evade questions and respond in a 
> condescending manner -- making fun of people's occupations (the oft noted 
> "angles dancing on pins" comment about the topic of LOGIC no less) -- when 
> voters are trying to find out information about your candidate. 
> 
> If Krauss does not fire you, then clearly he must think that this is a fine way 
> to do politics: Respond nicely to the folks you like and flip the liberals and 
> academics off. This is a bad campaign strategy!
> 
> I will not vote for Krauss in part because you are his treasurer, his 
> spokesman and you seem unable to speak nicely or in an informed way to 
> anyone who does not share your opinion.
> 
> This is exactly one of the fears of the GMA that I expressed in my town crier.
> 
> --
> Joe Campbell
> 
> ---- Jeff Harkins <jeffh at moscow.com> wrote: 
> 
> =============
> Joe,
> 
> Yes, it is a busy time of year.
> 
> Unusual post.  Perhaps in your own words - you close with a 
> fallacious argument.
> 
> Good night Joe
> 
> 
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet, 
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
>                http://www.fsr.net                       
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================

_________________________________________________________________
Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!
http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews