[Vision2020] Dispel the anti-growth myth
Bruce and Jean Livingston
jeanlivingston at turbonet.com
Mon Oct 29 23:52:07 PDT 2007
Donovan,
Obviously, it would be nice to keep businesses here. However, now that the corridor development is on the verge of occurring, many businesses will want to be in the corridor for competitive reasons -- plunked down in the population center of Moscow/Pullman. If allowed to develop, the Whitman County corridor is a natural place for businesses to locate. My point was not that it is great that businesses are going to want to go to Whitman County, but that IF businesses are to go there, then an exodus of auto dealerships would seem to have less adverse consequences.
I did not follow all you said in your first paragraph, but at least one of your other points was inapt. "We lose the cash flow of the current business."? I believe that belongs to the business, not us.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: Donovan Arnold
To: Bruce and Jean Livingston ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dispel the anti-growth myth
Bruce,
I think losing any business to Pullman or Washington is not good. I believe that the property taxes from James Toyota are better going to Moscow than Washington. The sales and development on the land is another income that will not come to Moscow either. In addition we lose the cash flow of the current business. So it is a negative tax flow out no matter how you slice it,
I also believe, maybe someone else has the actual numbers, that Moscow gets more in tax dollars per population than it pays in because of the University.
Best,
Donovan
Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> wrote:
Frankly, of all the businesses that might be lost to the corridor, the automobile dealerships make the most sense, from a Moscow perspective. Even with the dealerships located in Moscow, we get NONE of the sales tax dollars on sales to Whitman County residents on our auto sales in Moscow; we only get the sales tax on sales to Idaho residents. Conversely, Whitman County auto sales in the corridor will not generate any sales tax for Washington on cars purchased by Idahoans; Idaho will get all of the sales tax on automobile sales to Idahoans at Whitman County dealerships. The loss to us would basically be the convenience of going to James Toyota in town, and instead having to go further.
But if the corridor is to develop, filling it with auto dealerships would be one way of getting taxes back into Idaho from there. Of course, aesthetically, it would be a tragedy, but that will be Whitman's call, not ours.
Unfortunately, the tax benefit will be felt primarily in Boise, not here in Moscow itself, since local sales tax is not tied to the community that generates it. It all goes to Boise, and they kick a very small percentage of the state-wide take back to the cities and counties. But that is also why retail is not as significant a contributor to the local tax base as many people suppose, even for the retail businesses that are located in Moscow.
Bruce Livingston
----- Original Message -----
From: Donovan Arnold
To: keely emerinemix ; Bev Bafus ; Saundra Lund ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dispel the anti-growth myth
Keely,
I believe that the current Wal Mart building and huge parking lot would have served as the perfect location for James Toyota. But because Moscow leadership rejected Wal-Marts attempt to expand their service to the community, it prevents James Toyota, a local business, from also expanding his service while remaining in the community.
Anti-business attitudes have ripple effects on the community.
Best,
Donovan
keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
I disagree that the city has "lost" James Toyota as it plans its westward expansion.
Moscow sits right on the Washington/Moscow border. If James Toyota, located as near the border as it can be while still being in Idaho, wants to grow, it will seek expansion on a highly traveled corridor -- say, a newly widened four-lane highway from Pullman to Moscow. It wouldn't want to locate at Steakhouse Hill north of Moscow; there's not enough traffic from Potlatch to warrant it, and CdA has a Toyota dealership. Maybe south of town on 95 would make sense, except that the Lewiston-Clarkston area has a Toyota dealership -- again, no need for them to travel to Moscow. You couldn't get enough traffic on the Troy Highway east of Moscow to justify putting it there; it's true that Bovill lacks a Toyota dealership, but they go west to buy -- Pullman residents don't go east, generally, to shop. The only point on the compass that makes sense for James is to go West on the Moscow-Pullman highway.
Unfortunately, Moscow is bumped up right to the state line -- I could barely park my (Toyota) car west of the westernmost building, the Appaloosa Club, and still be in Idaho. Pullman, on the other hand, gets to claim the eight miles from its eastern border to the state line, and that does give them an advantage (an advantage that, while perhaps good for them, deserves oversight and comment from our council). If Moscow began eight miles east of the straight line, and that land were ripe for development, my guess is that James Toyota would stay in Idaho, effectively drawing customers from all over the Toyota dealer-deficient Palouse.
I can't comment on a lot of the development on that corridor, but I think it's inaccurate to say that Moscow "lost" James Toyota.
keely
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:04:00 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: bevbafus at verizon.net; sslund at roadrunner.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dispel the anti-growth myth
I think the image of Moscow being anti-business is an accurate perception. And it isn't new, it has just gotten worse.
I am sure that many businesses have come to Moscow, even in recent years. However, we are also losing a lot of businesses and are blocking many of them from coming into Moscow. We also prevent businesses from expanding and hiring more people.
I have attended few city council meetings, but many of them were about blocking some type of business or another. I remember the city council rejecting an entire expansion of businesses behind the Palouse Mall. Many local businesses have been pushed out of the Palouse Mall and the city has done nothing to protect them.
And as we all know, Moscow rejected a Wal-Mart Supercenter, Naylor Farms, and Home Depot. Likewise it lost Toyota, Tidyman's, and several wonderful restaurants, and a locally owned repair shop in additions to a 1/2 downtown and in the Palouse Mall.
I do agree with Alturas as being an example of doing "The Right Thing" to get a business in. But as I recall Aaron Ament was against the expansion of that building, and more tax dollars were put into that building than we have received in return.
I think the biggest anti-business incentives for Moscow are its property taxes. Moscow's taxes make Moscow an unaffordable city that is unfriendly to businesses.
Best,
Donovan
Bev Bafus <bevbafus at verizon.net> wrote:
Let's add a few expanding businesses. Northwest Management, where I work,
is currently doubling the size of our office. Northwest River Supplies took
over the Tidyman's building.
Any other expanding businesses?
Bev
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]On Behalf Of Saundra Lund
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:26 PM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Dispel the anti-growth myth
The letter below appears in today's Daily News -- anyone care to add more to
Ms. Sullivan's list?
Also, do any of you GMAers care to provide a list of new businesses that
came to Moscow during any two-year period of Comstock's reign and a list of
businesses that were denied?
I think it might be interested to have a ***factual*** comparison rather
than just rumors designed to tear down the community.
Saundra Lund
"Dispel the anti-growth myth
I agree that having the "perception" of being anti-growth/anti-business is
harmful to the city of Moscow, and I was driven to find out why that
perception exists when Wayne Krauss expressed concerns and asked, "Why do we
have this perception?" at a recent forum.
Since the most recently elected council came into office in January 2006,
more than 35 new businesses have opened in Moscow, including Old Navy, Bed,
Bath and Beyond, Cramer's Furniture, Dad's Diner, Marco Polo, Nectar,
Lilliput, Sisters Brew Coffeehouse, West of Paris, Palouse Scoots, Moscow
Bagel and Deli, Anytime Fitness, San Miguels, Sure Shot Sporting Goods,
Subway, and BioTracking just to name a few. Many businesses have expanded
and moved into larger spaces during this time. Only two businesses were
denied by the city and these were both handled in the way that Walter Steed
states he would address a pig farm wanting to locate behind his property;
they were denied in the specific proposed locations in accordance with
zoning regulations. Never did city officials say they were not wanted in
Moscow.
Back to the question posed by Krauss: "Why do we have this perception?" For
the answer, I would look to recent advertisements in the Moscow-Pullman
Daily News for Krauss, Steed and Carscallen in which the headline calls the
current city leadership "anti-growth politicians." I would pay attention to
who is repeating this anti-growth message over and over.
I believe Dan Carscallen is concerned when he says, "Changing the perception
is the thing that needs to happen," and if we can all agree that this is
harmful, we should all agree to stop, to dispel this myth and to promote
Moscow.
Brandy Sullivan, Moscow"
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