[Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN

[pkraut at moscow.com]

I am amazed that you seem to really believe that neither Gary nor Donovan 
could have a thought that didn't come from anyone connected with CC. Maybe 
it is just a good thought that many have and your the one that is wrong?? 
Your paranoia it running away with you!




> I'd like a response to this from Crabtree.
> 
> I asked both Donovan and Gary if they were fed information recently from 
the members of a
local church and neither have answered the question.
> 
> --
> Joe Campbell
> 
> ---- Saundra Lund <sslund at roadrunner.com> wrote: 
> 
> =============
> Hi Mr. Crabtree,
> 
> If you really *did* search the V2020 archives for those select quotes 
from Joe, then
you've got my sympathies for having more time than sense.
> 
> Frankly, I'm having more than a little trouble imagining you trolling 
through the V2020
archive for the extended time you chose to find *just* the right quotes.  
More likely,
IMHO, is the fact that your freakish and creepy pals have collected those 
posts and are
spoon feeding them to you -- we already *know* they collect the V2020 
posts of some of us
who challenge their warped worldview, so just come clean.
> 
> Just to make sure folks Get what I'm talking about, let me clarify that 
during the period
you chose (October 2005 through July 2006), Joe posted over 200 times, as 
did you
yourself.  It doesn't matter how you used the V2020 Web interface, finding 
and reading
through all of Joe's posts during that time frame to find just the right 
quotes would have
taken a significant amount of time.
> 
> Besides, had you done the research yourself, it only makes sense that 
you'd include the
links to the posts so we could read them in context.  Well, that's 
certainly the most
likely course for one with integrity.
> 
> Care to restate your comment, "By the way, I don't collect your quotes, 
the V2020 archive
does"?
> 
> Credibility is priceless, Mr. Crabtree, so think carefully before 
answering.
> 
> Or are you just playing the same Word Parsing Game some of your pals 
have been taught by
certain wolves in sheeps' clothing?
> 
> 
> 
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
> 
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to 
do nothing.
> ~ Edmund Burke
> 
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life 
plus 70 years,
Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the 
Vision 2020 forum
without the express written permission of the author.*****
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-
bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of g.
crabtree
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 8:08 AM
> To: Joe Campbell
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com; Donovan Arnold
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN
> 
> So when YOUR incongruous comments are pointed out, I'M a jackass. I 
suppose 
> no matter what happens in your life that's not quite to your liking it 
will 
> be someone else that's at fault. (most likely me, since I am apparently 
your 
> worlds only jackass) I fail to see how supporting my contentions by 
> providing reference to your actual words equals making fun of your 
religious 
> beliefs. By the way, I don't collect your quotes, the V2020 archive 
does. If 
> you are embarrassed by what you have said in the past I don't see how I 
can 
> be held accountable. Providing the full quote and a reference to where 
it 
> can be found is pretty much the exact opposite of quoting out of context.
> 
> I don't believe that pointing out inconsistency is the same as ridicule 
so, 
> here's a challenge for you. Using the same technique, why don't you back 
up 
> your assertion that I "make fun of  your religious beliefs." Providing 
> actual examples of my dastardly ways would doubtless go quite a bit 
further 
> than your unsubstantiated whining.
> 
> g
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Cc: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; 
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 7:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN
> 
> 
> I just want to be clear about one thing. You are a jackass.
> 
> It has nothing to do with my disagreement with you since the only person 
> I've
> ever called a 'jackass' is you. It has to do with the fact that you make 
fun 
> of
> my job and my religious beliefs. It is not the disagreement between us; 
it 
> is
> your jackass style that makes you a jackass.
> 
> Collecting my quotes! At least now the fears expressed in my post to Ted 
> will
> be understood! And check Dale's website later today to find more 
ridicule.
> 
> --
> Joe Campbell
> 
> ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> 
> =============
> Because someone disagrees with you there must be something wrong with 
them? 
> Glad to see that your ego hasn't been damaged by all the lack of 
> appreciation. It must be a horrible burden for you to be setting the 
> standard of normalcy for the rest of us, all by your lonesome.
> 
> Regarding the resentment you feel over my remark concerning your 
ambiguous 
> religious disposition, didn't you once proclaim on this forum to Chas UK:
> 
> "I lean heavily toward agnosticism, since I question whether or not 
anyone
> can know that God exists (though I haven't ruled this possibility out 
yet)
> and I am pretty close to being a full-fledged agnostic about the nature 
of
> God. I have a variety of beliefs about God's nature but I don't profess 
to
> have any knowledge about it, and in particular I don't profess to know
> anything about the connection between God and the moral law"
> 10/19/05 @ 5:03 PM
> 
> Seven months later you post:
> 
>  "I don't much care about particular religious beliefs, in general, and 
I 
> don't have any firm opinions about what counts -- or does not count -- 
as 
> genuine Christianity." 05/18/06 @ 10:59 AM to Tony Simpson
> 
> Less than two months later in a post to Danial Foucachon you made 
mention of 
> the fact that you avoid Dale Courtney's blog in the effort to "remain a 
good 
> Christian." 07/03/06 @ 8:59 AM
> 
> You have told us that you were raised as a Roman Catholic and yet you 
> embrace abortion and homosexual marriage as though they were two of the 
most 
> sacred of the sacraments.
> 
> I don't recall making any comment as to whether I believed your 
assertion of 
> being a Christian or not and I certainly make no judgment with regard to 
> your level of commitment to whatever it is you do believe but,It 
certainly 
> seems to me that reasonable people could come to the conclusion that you 
are 
> disposed toward a certain religious ambiguity.
> 
> g
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
> To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN
> 
> 
> > There are so many errors here, Donovan, it is hard to get started. 
This is 
> > part of the reason
> > it cracks me up when people like Crabtree make fun of philosophers! 
That 
> > attitude and
> > the inability to distinguish cogent arguments from fallacies go hand 
and 
> > hand. There is
> > lots of work for philosophers to do, it seems to me!
> >
> > Whether "Christ is the way to be saved" is essential to Christianity 
is, 
> > as Sue noted,
> > subject to interpretation and debate. But that is really beside the 
point. 
> > It is one thing to
> > have a belief, it is another to think that your belief is 
a "perfected" 
> > form of someone
> > else's. And it is yet a third thing to go to the trouble of saying 
that 
> > your belief is a
> > perfected form of Judaism to a Jew on national TV. You keep missing 
these 
> > points.
> >
> > You can believe whatever you want. My objection is to Coulter’s 
dogmatic, 
> > arrogant
> > attitude about the superiority of her beliefs over those of others. 
This 
> > is especially
> > irritating since her beliefs are the product of faith, and it is hard 
to 
> > see how faith could
> > ever support arrogant dogmatism. I’m annoyed too because I’m a 
Christian 
> > and some
> > people – Paul for instance – seem to think that idiotic arrogance 
typifies 
> > Christian belief.
> >
> > Lastly, I don't appreciate the suggestion that I'm not a Christian – 
nor 
> > did I appreciate
> > Crabtee's comment about my “ambiguous religious disposition”. 
Funny that 
> > both of you
> > will stand up for a local Pastor’s right to justify slavery and 
capital 
> > punishment for gays
> > yet my own beliefs are not worthy of defense. What the hell is wrong 
with 
> > you two?
> >
> > Unlike Ann Coulter, I consider my beliefs to be a matter between me 
and 
> > God and none
> > of  your business. And unlike Ann Coulter, I know that faith is not 
the 
> > product of
> > fallacious reasoning, so I'm not trying to win folks over with hateful 
> > rhetoric.
> >
> > But don't listen to me! I'm just a philosophy professor!
> >
> > All the best, Joe
> >
> > ---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Joe,
> >
> >  She was reiterating the Dogma of Christianity. There is no salvation 
> > without the acceptance of Christ as your savior.  If you don't 
understand 
> > that fundamental fact, or don't believe it, you obviously are not a 
> > Christian. It is core dogma of the religion.
> >
> >  A mean vindictive person would wish for Jews to die, or parish. She 
said 
> > she wished the opposite, that they would accept Christ so that they 
can be 
> > saved. That sounds like more of a loving statement than a hateful one 
to 
> > me.
> >
> >  She was not singling out Jews, the commentator was because he was 
Jewish, 
> > she believes that all religions outside of Christianity are in error, 
as 
> > do all Christians. I think you will also find that followers of the 
Jewish 
> > and Muslim faiths likewise believe that followers of any religion 
other 
> > than their own faith is also in error. Christians want all people be 
> > saved, even if it is considered politically incorrect to do so.
> >
> >  Best,
> >
> >  Donovan
> >
> > Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >  Donovan wrote: "Ann Coulter did not say Jews, Muslims, Hindus, 
Atheists, 
> > all
> > other non-Christians were worthless, or inferior for their beliefs.
> >
> > She said that Christianity was Judaism "perfected." How does that not 
> > entail
> > that Judaism is inferior to Christianity?
> >
> > Sorry but I'm catching up on e-mail!
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- Donovan Arnold wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > Ann Coulter should say, "Religious conflict and war is good, and that 
some 
> > people should not be saved."?
> >
> > I think this is rather absurd that people are making a big deal of 
this. 
> > Ann Coulter did not say Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, all other 
> > non-Christians were worthless, or inferior for their beliefs. She 
didn't 
> > say other shouldn't be allowed to practice their religion. What she 
said 
> > was that the world would be better off if the entire world was 
Christian. 
> > Which from an empirical point of view, the world would be better off 
if it 
> > was all one religion. Secondly, of course Christians want all others 
to be 
> > Christians, that is a fundamental belief of Christians that only 
> > Christians can be saved. It is also the belief of many religions that 
> > their religion is the better, and/or only true religion. I am 
Catholic, 
> > the largest and most diverse church in the world, and our creed 
> > specifically states that the Holy Roman Catholic Church is the "One 
and 
> > Only True Church".
> >
> > If she said all Jews and non-Christians should die, and only 
Christians 
> > are deserving of rights, that would be outrageous. But to expect Ann 
> > Coulter's statements to say the opposite is true; the world is better 
off 
> > if it has religious conflict and we should want others to suffer 
eternal 
> > damnation, is suppose to be a more of an acceptable statement?
> >
> > I think she was kind of set up with that question. It didn't matter 
which 
> > way she answered.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> > Ted Moffett wrote:
> >
> > All-
> >
> > Ann Coulter's books sell big time... She's laughing all the way to the 
> > bank. Carl Westberg is right on the money (no pun intended) about 
Coulter 
> > being "pure show business." The more outrageous her comments, the more 
> > publicity. It's so obvious she's deliberately aiming to upset people 
with 
> > extreme political incorrectness.
> >
> > What is disturbing is that many people really believe what she 
advocates. 
> > Millions do believe that the US would be better off if we were all 
> > Christians. Correct? What is more shocking than Coulter's comments, is 
> > that she is supported by a sizable fan base. She definitely speaks to 
a 
> > large percentage of the US public that admires her frank expression of 
> > views that they sympathize with.
> >
> > She is merely a symptom of a much broader problem in US society.
> >
> > Ted Moffett
> >
> > On 10/12/07, keely emerinemix wrote: This is the same Ann Coulter who 
> > dated Joseph Guccione, publisher of that paragon of Christian virtue, 
> > Penthouse magazine. Miz Coulter is a nutcase, and I think the 
orderlies 
> > need to find stronger straps.
> >
> > keely
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > From: privatejf32 at hotmail.com
> > To: joekc at adelphia.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:33:59 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN
> >
> > Ann Coulter is totally nuts! "Perfected"? "Fast Track"? What is 
> > that!!!!??? Who buys this stuff?
> >
> > J :]
> >
> >
> >> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 06:46:38 -0700
> >> From: joekc at adelphia.net
> >> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN
> >>
> >> Conservative commentator and best-selling author Ann Coulter may find 
> >> herself in the midst of a controversy for comments Monday suggesting 
> >> America would be better if everyone was Christian.
> >>
> >> Asked by CNBC host Donny Deutsch what the U.S. looks like in her 
dreams, 
> >> Coulter said it would look like the Republican National Convention in 
> >> 2004
> >>
> >> "People were happy," she said, according to a transcript provided to 
CNN 
> >> by CNBC. "They're Christian. They're tolerant. They defend America."
> >>
> >> When Deutsch responded, "It would be better if we were all 
Christian?" 
> >> Coulter said "Yeah."
> >>
> >> Deutsch, himself Jewish, continued to press Coulter on her remarks, 
> >> asking, "We should just throw Judaism away and we should all be 
> >> Christians then?"
> >>
> >> "Yeah," Coulter responded, adding "Well, it's a lot easier. It's kind 
of 
> >> a fast track."
> >>
> >> "You can't possibly believe that," Deutsch responded. "You can't 
> >> possibly. You're too educated."
> >>
> >> "Do you know what Christianity is?" Coulter replied. "See, we believe 
> >> your religion, but you have to obey. We have the fast track program."
> >>
> >> Later in the interview Deutsch asked Coulter if she doesn't want any 
Jews 
> >> in the world, Coulter responded, "No, we think — we just want 
Jews to 
> >> be perfected, as they say."
> >>
> >> "Wow, you didn't really say that, did you," Deutsch said.
> 
> 
> 
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