[Vision2020] Affordable Housing
g. crabtree
jampot at roadrunner.com
Fri Nov 2 06:37:08 PDT 2007
You seem to be forgetting the original premise of your argument. If the local housing market is so over built that it becomes over run with "white elephant's that the banks are desperate to unload." Who is it that will be willing to give the bank a price that will allow for a profit? A more likely scenario would be that the bank would try and unload the property before the additional expenses of its sitting empty cost it even more. As a result the property sells for a lower ( more affordable ) price and the market corrects.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ford
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Affordable Housing
Not if you use your brain...the longer something remains on the books as a liability, the less chance of any profit being made much less a good profit being made. Common sense - get it moving, make the profit and be done with it.
J :]
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:31:57 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Affordable Housing
So how does "desperate to unload a while elephant," square with "They want profit, not just to get rid of things?" The two statements seem to contradict one another.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ford
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Affordable Housing
They don't want to operate at a loss, either, fella!
Did you happen to see what happened to the CEO of Merrill/Lynch this week? He's out due to his taking a gamble on the housing industry and LOOSING big time - to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars. Not something a bank is knowingly going to go into nor wish to stay in if they can help it. So taking a white elephant and un-loading it to the first guy with a buck is not going to cut it. They want profit, not just to get rid of things.
And this is NOT affordable housing...it's a "garage sale" mentality that no one wants. The person buying into such a house is more encumbered than you realize when they get into such a house. It is NOT affordable to anyone.
J :]
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 07:37:40 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Affordable Housing
Perhaps you or some other "progressive" would like to explain the error in my thinking? Goodness knows I'm not a property/finance expert but, it seems obvious that banks, and more importantly their shareholders don't need or want liabilities ("white elephants") cluttering up the P&L statements. As the houses stagnate on the market the price will drop until it becomes attractive to someone. The very definition of affordable housing.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ford
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Affordable Housing
Yeah - now THERE's some progressive thinking going on!
"Wouldn't that be the market sorting it self out? Doesn't one mans (or banks) "desperate to unload white elephant" becomes another mans affordable housing?" gc
J :]
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From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: privatejf32 at hotmail.com; the_ivies3 at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Affordable Housing
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 06:39:03 -0700
"I believe sooner or later, we will see a bunch of houses sitting empty with banks desperate to unload a while elephant."
Wouldn't that be the market sorting it self out? Doesn't one mans (or banks) "desperate to unload white elephant" becomes another mans affordable housing?
g
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ford
To: Tom Ivie ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Affordable Housing
The thing is, communities around us are selling houses at half to one quarter the prices seen in Moscow and renting for far less than Moscow. The community and developers (yes, they set the price of the houses they build) need to get together and become educated in what really sells, how it sells and why it sells. The housing in Moscow is just ridiculous when you consider other towns, with larger populations, are seeing houses going for so much less. I think for a town like ours to have SO many developments with SO many houses in each one is just short-sighted or no-sighted and I believe sooner or later, we will see a bunch of houses sitting empty with banks desperate to unload a while elephant.
I also believe that if Moscow continues to rely on UI or WSU to be main-stayers in the employment fields, we will see a major decline not only in students coming to the area but people staying here. If the current plans to move the UI colleges to other parts of the state holds true, it will especially hurt us if we don't do something about attracting other types of industry to this area.
Its all fine and well that "New Cities" was accepted by Moscow to be the new vision of things to come, but nothing is going to really pick the area up economically if we can't be more supportive in developing business opportunities rather than housing developments. Can't sell what people can't pay for due to lack of jobs.
Nor do we need to continue to allow some groups in Moscow to become/remain tax-exempt but owning HUGE amounts of commercial properties, yet service-demanding.
J :]
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Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:58:17 -0700
From: the_ivies3 at yahoo.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Affordable Housing
Hi Donovan,
I agree with you on this one and as you point out, this was a problem WAY before our current city council. However, there is also another element to affordable housing. What I am talking about is entry level starter homes. Not to blame the developers, because I don't know that it is their fault, but the cost of land is not affordable, this gets passed onto the homebuyer. It is probably a matter of economics that the developers or builders build $200,000 on up homes on the property. I don't blame them for wanting to get the most money out of their investment. The fact is that salaries have not gone up at even close to the same rate that housing prices did. There has been a lot of purchasing of homes done in a manner of creative financing that neither you or I could even try, but those buying strategies have caused some tapering off in the housing market as a direct or indirect result. Does that higher market affect affordable housing? I think it might. But I don't know how to explain myself on it. Maybe someone can takeover from here and explain if I am onto something. And the same is true if I am completely wrong. I don't mind learning something new.
Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Joe,
While I certainly am not a trained expert, I have had extensive experience trying to find affordable housing in Moscow and worked with many others also trying to afford decent housing.
When I was in the ASUI Senate, one of my living groups was Family Housing. That caused me to investigate the situation because of the frequent and prevailing problems these families had trying to find adequate housing in the Moscow region.
I also worked with people with disabilities and could not by law work more than a few hours each week or face losing their medical care which was paramount for their survival.
In my own personal quest for housing, I also had trouble finding anything decent and affordable in Moscow.
Here is why I think finding decent housing is unaffordable in Moscow for many people;
Income restriction. If a couple or two adults make more than $24,000 gross, combined, they do not qualify for low income housing. If they do, their rent is still usually about $500-$650 a month plus utilities. So two people making $24,000, net $20,000, must spend about $7000 on housing and utilities. Giving them only $6500 a piece to live on for the whole year, not a fun situation to be in!
Another encroachment is the education exclusion for low income housing. You cannot be a full time student at UI and legally live in most low income housing units. Undergraduate students taking more than 8 credits, or graduate students taking more than 6 do not qualify for most of the low income housing units in Moscow. Another person that doesn't qualify is a student trying to get his or her GED. If they are taking classes to get a GED, you cannot get into low income housing BECAUSE you are full time student.
Market rate based low income housing assistance is also a problem in Moscow. That is where the federal government simply discounts housing units by about 20% below the market rate. For example, a housing unit that is a two bedroom, one bath unit on the open market in Moscow would be about $625. So the rate is reduced only to about $525 a month. Still unaffordable because Moscow's housing market is so tight, you cannot get the rate to be affordable for many Moscow residents.
Next, you also have rent based rent. These units are limited, hard to get into, and generally places you don't want to live unless you have absolutely not other choice.
Unless you are on Section 8, which is hard to get into and find a place, on want to live in a tiny cramped noisy studio apartment, you are pretty much screwed out of a decent affordable housing unit in Moscow.
I would also like to point out, that the problem with Moscow housing is that there simply is not enough housing for the population. Moscow has one of the highest per cap. unit in the state, over 21,000 people for just 8,000 units. That drives the rent way up.
The people, that I think have the hardest time, are those that make between $18,000 and $24,000 a year. Because at that rate, you don't qualify for any type of government assistance, not housing, not food stamps,not medical care, and very limited education assistance if any. $18,000-$24,000 is not enough to pay for housing, food, medical care, transportation, and other basic needs in Moscow when you have no assistance.
Because of rules and restrictions on low income housing, many low income housing units sit empty while many who need those housing units are not allowed in.
My suggestion would be to either change the rules so low income housing units get filled up, or build so much housing that the prices fall from competition.
Best,
Donovan
Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
In her recent letter to the editor, Shelley Bennett writes this about development:
"... in order to get companies to locate in Moscow, we also need affordable
housing options and support services that make living here affordable. The
actions of the current mayor and many members of the City Council have
done everything they can over the course of the last few years to make sure
we do not have affordable housing options."
I don't know much about affordable housing. What I do know, I learned from
Aaron Ament, who is a City Council member, and Bob Stout, who served
longer on City Council than Tom Lamar. Bob was in favor of affordable housing,
it was a key issue in his campaign two years ago. Aaron, too, is in favor of
affordable housing. I have little reason to believe that Lamar, or Linda Paul,
or Evan Holmes would not be in favor of affordable housing.
I have two questions.
Is what Bennett says true? Has the council made affordable housing options worse?
Doesn't affordable housing begin at the point of development?
I think so. I think that the developer has a lot more control over costs
than any city council, especially if we're restricting government in the way
that Jeff thinks we should. The difference in the cost of a single house with
city fees vs. without them is negligible, I imagine.
But maybe there is something I'm missing.
Best, Joe
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