[Vision2020] School District Math

Mike Deleve coolerfixer at adelphia.net
Wed May 30 15:09:13 PDT 2007

Well, I hope I was enjoyable, diligent, err................. well, umm, I 
,uh, yeah. That was a long time ago!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
To: "Mike Deleve" <coolerfixer at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math

> Mike,  I don't disagree with you.  If you are angry because you feel 
> cheated, I  would admit you have a legitimate right to that anger.  You 
> were a diligent and enjoyable student.  So what do we do now?  I know 
> every class we institute should be done with care for all student needs 
> and given what you are saying we failed you.  I do so want a school 
> district where all students have the choices they need to make good post 
> high school decisions. Messages from former students who really did take 
> their high school offerings seriously, do resonate with me.  You were one 
> of those.  It seems to me there must be room somewhere for those such as I 
> who don't want students to be relegated to descriptors such as college 
> bound and non college bound, and others such as you who want students who 
> have been underserved or unserved to be seen as people with legitimate 
> needs which the district is not meeting, to design and implement programs 
> that will meet those students' needs.
> When you were in high school we were kicking around the idea of building a 
> comprehensive multi-district high school to serve non-college bound 
> students with vocational/technical skills.  I didn't like the idea then, 
> and I don't like the idea now, but it seems to me there ought to be ways 
> to integrate those offerings through cooperative programs with the U of I, 
> LCSC, and other nearby districts--but honestly I'm getting into an area 
> where I don't have current knowledge of what is already taking place.
> Thanks for your perspective.  I appreciate it.
> Sue
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Deleve" <coolerfixer at adelphia.net>
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math
>> Quoting my U.S. Government teacher, Sue Hovey, "My disagreement is with 
>> those who would stratify the high school  population into the college 
>> bound and the non college bound and lock step  them through any program."
>> So my question is, why do we lockstep them through a college bound only 
>> program? No choice for the non-college bound. Trust me on this. The non 
>> college bound will not feel slighted by the addition of choices to help 
>> them with their long-term life goals. I feel I was cheated when I moved 
>> to Moscow. My previous school had a virtual apothecary of voc. ed classes 
>> to choose from. I knew long before high school that I had no interest in 
>> college. MSD's lack of voc ed hindered my career choices. If I had to do 
>> it over again, I would have moved to California and lived with my 
>> Grandmother and gone to school there. I would be far better off now. 
>> Gerry Weitz?I agree wholeheartedly with him on the subject of voc. ed. 
>> but not his tactics whatsoever. I have had discussions with many people 
>> over the years about the MSD's lack of voc ed, and the opinion that the 
>> MSD is off track is by far in the majority. There may be many fine 
>> teachers in the system (and Mrs. Hovey, you were one of them) but I truly 
>> believe that the MAJORITY of high school students are underserved if not 
>> unserved. I apologize if the tone of this is too aggressive, but this is 
>> a VERY sore subject with me.
>> Mike
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
>> To: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>; 
>> "'Donovan Arnold'" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 11:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math
>>> But I don't disagree with you.  Those classes should be offered for
>>> everyone.  My disagreement is with those who would stratify the high 
>>> school
>>> population into the college bound and the non college bound and lock 
>>> step
>>> them through any program.  I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. 
>>> And
>>> as for keyboarding skills, it seems to me they need to be taught in
>>> elementary school.  It used to be argued that elementary student motor
>>> skills weren't developed enough for keyboarding, but I think from 
>>> looking at
>>> the fine motor skills of young people, that's probably a crock...
>>> Sue
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>
>>> To: "'Sue Hovey'" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>; 
>>> "'Donovan
>>> Arnold'" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:28 AM
>>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] School District Math
>>>> Hi Sue & Other Visionaries:
>>>> Well, I hesitate to toss my opinions into the mix.  First, Donovan & I
>>>> might
>>>> both keel over from the shock of publicly almost agreeing with each 
>>>> other
>>>> ;-)
>>>> Second, and perhaps most importantly, I'm not particularly 
>>>> well-informed
>>>> about some of these things, and I don't have the answers.
>>>> OTOH, by tossing my opinions out there, I might get an education 
>>>> through
>>>> the
>>>> feedback  :-)
>>>> I'm not happy with Dr. Weitz's & his GMA buddies' lawsuit.  I think it 
>>>> was
>>>> a
>>>> destructive & divisive thing for them to do, and I would like to think
>>>> that
>>>> there was some better way for Dr. Weitz to accomplish his purpose,
>>>> whatever
>>>> it was.  However, I'm not privy to what other, if any, attempts he may 
>>>> or
>>>> may not have made prior to filing suit.
>>>> That said, I am *incredibly* disappointed with the school district. 
>>>> There
>>>> is no excuse, IMHO, for having such an incredibly anemic pro-tech (or
>>>> whatever the current word is for what used to be vo-tech) ed program
>>>> :-(((
>>>> It's absolutely unconscionable, IMHO.
>>>> I've told these two anecdotes before, but for those who weren't here 
>>>> back
>>>> then . . .
>>>> First, when my daughter was at MJHS, we were told that if we wanted her 
>>>> to
>>>> formally learn keyboarding (the modern equivalent to the typing I 
>>>> learned
>>>> back in the Dark Ages), she *had* to take it at the junior high because 
>>>> it
>>>> wasn't offered at the high school.  To me, that is one of the biggest
>>>> loads
>>>> of you-know-what -- I don't care what the excuse is, telling kids they
>>>> have
>>>> to take keyboarding before tenth grade or not at all is a huge 
>>>> disservice
>>>> to
>>>> our students in this day & age.
>>>> Second, I was one of those disgusting highly motivated, high achieving
>>>> students who participated in lots of extracurricular activities back in
>>>> the
>>>> Dark Ages and who couldn't wait to get through high school and move 
>>>> onto
>>>> college.  I went to summer school (another important thing this 
>>>> district
>>>> is
>>>> lacking, IMHO) every summer so I could take more electives and graduate
>>>> early.  Which I did.
>>>> HOWEVER,  the vo-tech training I took is what enabled me to progress
>>>> through
>>>> higher education -- the skill I learned put me above minimum wage and
>>>> opened
>>>> lots of opportunities for me to be able to work while going to college.
>>>> Because my father didn't support my planned course of education, he
>>>> withheld
>>>> my college funds.  Since I'd not applied for financial aid or 
>>>> scholarships
>>>> because I thought it better to leave those for young adults who 
>>>> wouldn't
>>>> be
>>>> able to go to school without them, I wouldn't have been able to 
>>>> *afford*
>>>> to
>>>> go to college were it not for the skills I got from vo-tech.
>>>> I think it's a HUGE mistake to think that the pro-tech education this
>>>> district is sorely lacking would only be of benefit to non-college 
>>>> bound
>>>> students.  Regardless of the actual stats of district college-bound
>>>> students
>>>> vs non-college-bound students, it's inexcusable, IMHO, that our 
>>>> district
>>>> doesn't offer a real pro-tech program to *all* it's high school 
>>>> students.
>>>> I
>>>> don't know how we got to this point, but it's wrong, Wrong, WRONG.
>>>> So, while I strongly disagree with Dr. Weitz's course of action, I also
>>>> strongly support his efforts to get this district into the 21st century
>>>> with
>>>> pro-tech education for *all* our high school students . . . and I 
>>>> strongly
>>>> disagree with the district's refusal to make progress in this area.
>>>> Oh, and as an aside to Donovan, while I'm not qualified to discuss the
>>>> nutritional status of our school breakfasts & lunches, I will say I'm 
>>>> not
>>>> happy with them.  Try being the parent of a vegetarian student, and no, 
>>>> my
>>>> daughter isn't the only vegetarian at the high school!  In our family, 
>>>> we
>>>> (well, maybe not my husband) used to really Friday nights as Pizza 
>>>> nights,
>>>> but since that's reportedly just about the *only* vegetarian choice at
>>>> lunch, the bloom is *definitely* off that rose for my daughter after
>>>> eating
>>>> it day in & day out for just about two years now.
>>>> JMHO,
>>>> Saundra Lund
>>>> Moscow, ID
>>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to 
>>>> do
>>>> nothing.
>>>> - Edmund Burke
>>>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life
>>>> plus
>>>> 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
>>>> outside
>>>> the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
>>>> author.*****
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
>>>> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>>>> On Behalf Of Sue Hovey
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:19 AM
>>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com; Donovan Arnold
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math
>>>>    Donovan makes a comparison one hears only too often today regarding 
>>>> the
>>>> levy and its purpose.  That's the pull between vocational and other
>>>> education.  His figure of 80% non college bound and 20% college bound 
>>>> is
>>>> skewed for a number of reasons, but it isn't my purpose to mess with 
>>>> it.
>>>> I
>>>> would simply ask:
>>>>    What part of an academic education should those not college bound
>>>> forego?  A good grounding in math?  So many vocational-technical 
>>>> careers
>>>> are
>>>> based in mathematic principals.  Being a good writer--one who uses
>>>> literary
>>>> conventions (spelling, punctuation, grammar) correctly, in order to
>>>> communicate effectively in an increasingly interactive world?  An
>>>> introduction to good literature and the mental stimulation it provides? 
>>>> A
>>>> sound knowledge of basic scientific principles, and the theories on 
>>>> which
>>>> they are based?  A knowledge of the history, not only of our country, 
>>>> but
>>>> the history and cultural underpinnings of current nations and the
>>>> governments which preceeded them?  Foreign language?  Art?  Music?  Are
>>>> not
>>>> all these offerings equally important and vital to the proper education 
>>>> of
>>>> all our students, regardless of the career paths they choose, sometimes
>>>> after heading down one path only to find they really want to be 
>>>> somewhere
>>>> else?
>>>>    It concerns me when people begin to make significant distinctions 
>>>> among
>>>> students and their intellectual needs, based on educational plans that
>>>> could
>>>> tie them to lifetime career paths they may later find did not prepare 
>>>> them
>>>> for the life they really want to lead.  The best education for students 
>>>> is
>>>> one that gives them ample preparation to sieze the opportunities which
>>>> appeal to them in their 20s and 30s and not be limited by the choices 
>>>> they
>>>> made, or even worse, those that were made for them, when they were 15 
>>>> or
>>>> 16.
>>>> Sue Hovey
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: Donovan Arnold <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: Glenn Schwaller <mailto:vpschwaller at gmail.com>  ;
>>>> vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:36 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] School District Math
>>>> Dr. Weitz is not only correct about the lawsuit because it is
>>>> stealing from the public, but he is also correct in bring attention to 
>>>> the
>>>> notion that the School District doesn't want to spend money and 
>>>> resources
>>>> on
>>>> the 80% of students that will not be college graduates and will be 
>>>> working
>>>> a
>>>> vocational job. Is it fair to spend 80% of the pie on 20% of the kids? 
>>>> I
>>>> think not. MSD is practicing discrimination.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Donovan
>>>> PS. The poor nutritional value of school lunches are another example
>>>> of poor decisions being made by the public school system to prepare
>>>> children
>>>> for a quality life.
>>>> -- 
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>>>> 1:01 PM
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