[Vision2020] Fw: The maladjusted and those who enable them...

Art Deco deco at moscow.com
Mon Mar 19 09:38:12 PDT 2007


Sorry Tony, but I am definitely not interested in having sex with you.  But I applaud your starting to get in touch with some of your sexual feelings.

W.

From: Tony 
To: Art Deco 
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...


Wayne, kiss my ass already, will you?

Best,  -T
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Art Deco 
  To: Vision 2020 
  Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 6:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...


  Thank you Tony for proving among others the following point:

  "Does this not remind you of the braggarts about their sexual exploits and fertility whose wives and girlfriends frequently leave them for poor or non-performance, or compensate for their lack of sexual prowess by having affairs with others more skilled or take up needlepoint?  Or which braggarts secretly share Haggard's desires more strongly than their heterosexual desires?"

  W.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tony 
  To: Art Deco 
  Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...


  Wayner, did it ever cross your mind that perhaps Dale was simply acknowledging reality with his use of the moniker "studly?"  As an experienced and confident male, I am amused by your pathetic conclusion that all men who possess the confidence with woman that you evidently lack, are automatically in the closet.  Woman are attracted to confident, masculine men, Wayner.  Do you fall, well, short?

  Don't make reflexive assumptions about your betters pal.

  Now go do the dishes.   

  -TONY
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Art Deco 
    To: Vision 2020 
    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:15 PM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...


    Gary,

    A few short points, but don't take the first one too seriously or at all personally:

    1.    "... sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar."   Hmmm.   I wonder what Freud or Rorschach would say about the choice of this particular aphorism in the context of this discussion.

    2.    For your consideration, excepted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard:

    Ted Arthur Haggard (born June 27, 1956) is a former American evangelical preacher. Known as Pastor Ted to the congregations he has served, he is the founder and former pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado; a founder of the Association of Life-Giving Churches; and was leader of the National Association of Evangelicals from 2003[1] until November 2006.

    In November 2006, he resigned or was removed from all of his leadership positions after allegations of homosexual sex and drug abuse were made by Mike Jones, a former male prostitute. Initially Haggard denied even knowing Mike Jones, but as a media investigation proceeded he acknowledged that some allegations, such as his purchase of methamphetamine, were true. He later added "sexual immorality" to his list of confessions.[2]

    ...

    Haggard has condemned "homosexual activity.” In the documentary Jesus Camp, one scene shows a sermon where he preaches, "we don't have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity. It’s written in the Bible."[18] Although Haggard opposes same-sex marriage, he has suggested that there should be civil unions for homosexual couples.[19]

    Under Haggard's leadership, the NAE released "For the Health of the Nation: An Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility" in the fall of 2004,[20] "a document urging engagement in traditional culture war issues such as abortion and gay marriage but also poverty, education, taxes, welfare and immigration."[20] The NAE has stated that "homosexual activity, like adulterous relationships, is clearly con­demned in the Scriptures."[21]

    Haggard is only one of many religious and political figures, mostly Republican (for example, Spokane's last mayor), who condemned homosexuality but were discovered to be active, if not ravenous practitioners of such.  Clear cases of reaction formation.

    To the point:  Did not Haggard exhibit the signs of reaction formation discussed in my post that you so kindly commented upon?  Did not Haggard's own admissions about his feelings and behaviors reveal the truth?  How are the signs shown by Tony, Farris, Cultmaster Douglas Wilson, etc, all who rabidly proclaim the same homophobia any different from the pre-exposure signs which Haggard and his fellow hypocrites exhibited?  

    When someone salivates, obsesses, and loudly harangues over some other adults' private sexual behavior with other adults, it argues that the salivator is having some real problems themselves.  Further, one would expect a libertarian to roundly condemn such egregious, pathological forays into matters of personal choice and freedom.

    3.    If you or anybody want to debate the morality of homosexuality, then I, and probably a lot others on this list-serve, are completely willing to do so on the basis of observation and reason, but not on the basis of unverifiable religious superstition.

    4.    You write:   

    "Does the fact that you are so vehemently opposed to any type of religious doctrine mean that you harbor messianic tendencies?"

    False assumption.  I am vehemently opposed to superstition of all kinds including religious superstition and belief in the supernatural as a basis upon which to make moral, social, or political decisions.  However, many religious ethical dicta (though not in such unyielding firmness and specificity) can be supported by non-superstitious/non-supernatural observations and reasons in many cases.  

    For your libertarian enjoyment, perhaps you might read The Leviathan http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/hobbes/leviathan-contents.html, by Thomas Hobbes who was basically a nonbeliever (and the founder of modern libertarianism), as an example of a purely secular defense/explanation of many western moral beliefs.  As a further example, there is a lot of empirical validity to Buddha's description of daily human life -- a description which led him to propose an ethic similar to the Greek Stoics (another group containing nonbelievers/anti-superstitionists). [There is a continuing debate over whether Buddha himself was a believer in the modern sense of the term.]

    Since your premise was false, there is no need to discuss your conclusion.  Nice try though.

    5.    Speaking of reaction formation:  What would think of a hypothetical man's sexual identity and masculinity issues, a man who would not only rabidly espouse homophobia, but would resort to an utterly ridiculous comb-over, and who would make himself the laughing-stock of some of his hypothetical GPS caching group by hypothetically naming himself "Studly" in the group?  Does this not remind you of the braggarts about their sexual exploits and fertility whose wives and girlfriends frequently leave them for poor or non-performance, or compensate for their lack of sexual prowess by having affairs with others more skilled or take up needlepoint?  Or which braggarts secretly share Haggard's desires more strongly than their heterosexual desires?

    Your humble servant,


    Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
    deco at moscow.com



    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: g. crabtree 
    To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020 
    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 11:42 AM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...


    Wayne,
      Psycho babble aside, sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar. you are so vehemently opposed to any type of religious doctrine mean that you harbor messianic tendencies? It would explain quite a lot about how you deal with anyone who might dare to disagree with your exalted point of view and multi color pronouncements.

    g
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Art Deco 
      To: Vision 2020 
      Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:29 AM
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...


      Tony,

      reaction formation  (plural reaction formations):  In psychoanalysis, a defense mechanism in which somebody condemns something that has a strong, driving unconscious appeal.


      reaction formation is a defense mechanism in which anxiety-producing or unacceptable emotions are replaced by their direct opposites. This mechanism is often characteristic of obsessional neuroses. When this mechanism is overused, especially during the formation of the ego, it can become a permanent character trait. This is often in those with obsessional character and obsessive personality disorders. This does not imply that its periodic usage is always obsessional, but that it can lead to obsessional behavior.  Example:  A man who is overly aroused by pornographic material who utilizes reaction formation may take on an attitude of criticism toward the topic.


      REACTION-FORMATION : The blocking of desire by its opposite. "Reaction-formation" is the term Freud uses to describe the mechanism whereby the ego reacts to the impulses of the id by creating an antithetical formation that blocks repressed cathexes. For example, someone who feels homosexual desire might repress that desire by turning it into hatred for all homosexuals.


      Perhaps you and Farris might confront and thus deal directly with your personal demons discretely in private, rather than so obviously exhibiting them in public.  I am sure that everyone would benefit, especially you and Farris:  both your stultifying repressions and secret frustrations could be at least partially deadened.  And after you have relived your tensions, perhaps you might be able to pass on your personal experiences with the cure and your newly found contacts to Cultmaster Douglas Wilson and his apparent secret admirer Douglas Jones, both who appear to need such therapy quite badly.

      Your internally inconsistent post also reveals the grave doubts you have about your masculinity and sexual identity when you have to resort to posting outright lies.  For example:

      "Saundra's determination to avoid reality by choosing to doubt what has by now become commonplace, rather than investigate, is disappointing if not surprising."


      Included in this thread is a post by Saundra giving the URL to the story from the Chicago Tribune which casts a very different light on the story posted originally by the salivating, non-critical Farris.  Saundra investigated; you did not.  It is one thing for you and the gullible, narrow-witted Farris to delude yourselves thinking you are agent provocateurs, but, in reality, quite another to so clearly exhibit yourselves as sexually frustrated liars.

      Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
      deco at moscow.com

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
      To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
      Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
      Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:21 AM
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The maladjusted and those who enable them...


      > Wow Doug, you really flushed out the extremist, sodomite activists with your 
      > entirely reasonable and justified outrage over the public school's abhorrent 
      > support for inappropriate, dirty and unhealthy behaviors.  Saundra's 
      > determination to avoid reality by choosing to doubt what has by now become 
      > commonplace, rather than investigate, is disappointing if not surprising.
      > 
      > And how about Wayne's complete refusal to address your message in favor of a 
      > masturbatory fit of name calling?  You know you have hit upon the truth in a 
      > persuasive manner when these folks, who seem determined to defend the 
      > indefensible, respond in a childlike snit.
      > 
      > Keep up the good work partner.
      > 
      > Best,   -Tony
      > ----- Original Message ----- 
      > From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
      > To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
      > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 7:25 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And you all say that we have a political agenda?!
      > 
      > 
      >> Replaying:
      >>
      >> This kind of right wing/religious bullshit is what happens when misguided,
      >> stupid, and/or tyrannical people depend on superstition for their moral
      >> beliefs rather than observation and reasoning.
      >>
      >> W.
      >> ----- Original Message ----- 
      >> From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
      >> To: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
      >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:31 PM
      >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] And you all say that we have a political 
      >> agenda?!
      >>
      >>
      >>> Note Waltz's final comment, "All our kids are great kids, whether they 
      >>> are
      >>> gay or straight," is, I believe, the point of these classes.  Too bad she
      >>> doesn't get it.
      >>>
      >>> Strange the Trib article doesn't even mention the nondisclosure contract
      >>> bit, which, if true, would be a significant issue for the press.  I
      >>> seriously doubt there is anything to the claim students have to sign a
      >>> contract promising "not to tell their parents."  Public school folks who
      >>> work with teenagers know they tell everything--to everyone, except maybe
      >>> their parents, until they turn 40 and around the dinner table tell us all
      >>> that stuff we really don't want to know now.
      >>>
      >>> Mrs. Walz's  daughter was hurt when her beliefs were challenged. But
      >>> that's
      >>> how kids grow, and adults, too.  To be called on to examine ones beliefs
      >>> is
      >>> not to say they are necessarily wrong; but as one who grew up believing
      >>> pretty much what Mrs Walz would have her daughter believe, I wish someone
      >>> had challenged my attitudes when I was 17 or so.
      >>>
      >>> Thanks for the lin.
      >>>
      >>> Sue Hovey
      >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
      >gt;> From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>
      >>> To: "'Sue Hovey'" <suehovey at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
      >>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:01 AM
      >>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] And you all say that we have a political
      >>> agenda?!
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> Hi Sue,
      >>>>
      >>>> You might want to check out this link to a story that was in the Chicago
      >>>> Trib:
      >>>> http://tinyurl.com/2arte6
      >>>>
      >>>> Not surprisingly, the story is actually quite a bit different than the
      >>>> drivel Doug Farris wants us to believe.  Seems to me the religious
      >>>> reactionaries need to get their stories straight -- it's hard to make 
      >>>> the
      >>>> argument about the whole nonsense of some confidentiality contract when
      >>>> everyone knows about the event in advance and parents can opt to not 
      >>>> have
      >>>> their children participate.  Notice, too, the names & how Ellen Waltz,
      >>>> whose name appears in the Trib, seems to be changing her story  :-P
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> Saundra Lund
      >>>> Moscow, ID
      >>>>
      >>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to 
      >>>> do
      >>>> nothing.
      >>>> - Edmund Burke
      >>>>
      >>>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through life
      >>>> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or 
      >>>> reproduce
      >>>> outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of
      >>>> the author.*****



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