[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: Fantasy vs. Reality Fourth Installment
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 8 07:59:39 PST 2007
After reading through that prayer, I have a few questions. The first
and foremost is: do members of Christ Church really think that the
people who have expressed disagreement with the church can really be
categorized as "enemies"? From my wishy-washy liberal views on such
things, the talk of death by hanging, blindness, and such seems a bit
overkill for a simple disagreement.
Wouldn't a true enemy of your god have to actually believe in your god
enough to actually oppose His true nature? I can't imagine why you
think it would be a good thing to have your god smite someone that you
have simply failed to convince of God's true nature and existence.
Since your god stays in the shadows and not out in the daylight, the
burden is on you to make us believe. Praying mean things for someone
that you have failed to convince sounds a bit arrogant to me, actually,
and I wouldn't be surprised if your god simply rolls his eyes whenever
He hears one of these prayers. I would, at a minimum. If I had even a
small sense of humor, I would smite everything asked for back on the
asker since that is basically what they are asking for themselves.
Paul
Sue Hovey wrote:
> Now at this point, does Job's wife just shake her finger at him and
> say, "Curse God and die?" Seems appropriate somehow.
>
> Sue Hovey
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* News of Christ Cult <mailto:news.of.christ.cult at gmail.com>
> *To:* Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 07, 2007 8:35 AM
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] Fantasy vs. Reality Fourth Installment
>
> Fantasy:
> http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=3162
> <http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=3162%20>
>
>
>
> *A Prayer of Imprecation*
> *Topic: *Liturgical Notes [Douglas Wilson]
>
> One of the easiest things in the world to misunderstand (and
> therefore to misrepresent) is the biblical pattern of imprecatory
> prayer. It is very easy to interpret the practice as some kind of
> primitive voodoo doll custom, practiced only by the petty and
> vindictive. But for those who are open to a very fine treatment of
> the subject, I would recommend John Day's book, /Crying for
> Justice
> <http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_/102-0677873-7898543?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Crying+for+Justice&Go.x=7&Go.y=13&Go=Go>/.
> Over the last few years, the fact that we have prayed this way has
> been seized on by some of our adversaries as proof-positive that
> we obviously are crazed fundamentalists. But fundamentalism is the
> practice of absolutizing bits and pieces of Scripture. Liberalism
> is the absolutizing of other portions. To their credit, the
> fundamentalists at least knew that the death of Christ on the
> cross was more important than than Pharaoh offered the Israelites
> full employment benefits, but the fundamentalist vision is still
> truncated for all that. But what happens when we submissively come
> to /tota et sola Scriptura/? Imprecation is part of it. Below is a
> sample prayer of imprecation, so those who are wondering if a
> biblical Christian could ever pray this way can read through one
> and see for themselves. But I think that the real question needs
> to be presented to those Christians who never have occasion to
> pray this way.
>
>
>
> Father of Jesus Christ, our gracious God, we cry out to You in a
> time of trouble. Our adversaries come at us with lies, lies that
> they delight to tell, fluent lies, as their father tells them, in
> their native language.
>
> We pray that You would return to them seven-fold, according to all
> that they have done or said or hoped for, and all according to the
> promises of Your holy Word. Grant to them shame of face, /so that
> they might turn back to You/ and seek Your name. We would not be
> like Jonah, resentful or afraid of Your grace to other sinners,
> even to those who have sinned grievously against us.
>
> You have taught us, called us, summoned us, to love our enemies,
> to bless those who curse us, to rejoice when we are mistreated by
> them, and to return good for evil. We are not to return evil for
> evil, but rather to overcome evil with good. We accept this and
> rejoice in it. We know and understand that this is based on Your
> holy character and example—You give rain and sunlight to the
> righteous and unrighteous both—and that this is therefore Your
> standard of holiness for us, and we gladly submit to it. We
> therefore seek the grace to continue to love our enemies, asking
> You to save them. Not only would we be saved from their treachery
> and lies, but we ask that You would save /them/ from their
> treachery and lies.
>
> In praying this way, we ask that we would be able to distinguish
> sharply between those who are our personal enemies, and those who
> are our enemies for Your name's sake. We pray that we would extend
> nothing but wholehearted grace to the former, and that we would
> commit the terrors of strict justice, with regard to the latter,
> entirely and only to You. We would not be like the disciples who,
> caught up in their mistaken zeal, did not know "what spirit they
> were of." We would ask nothing from You in this that Your Word
> does not specifically invite us to ask. You are a God who keeps
> covenant to a thousand generations, and we are asking You to keep
> Your covenant word. If justice falling on the heads of our enemies
> is not a promise of /covenant/ justice, Lord, we don't want to ask
> for it. But if it is such a promise, we dare not refuse to ask.
> How long, Lord, will You leave in sin those who mistreat Your
> people in this way?
>
> If it is not Your sovereign purpose to destroy them through saving
> grace, we pray that You would humiliate them and give them shame
> of face regardless. We pray that they would fall into the pit they
> have purposefully dug for us. We pray that You would turn all
> their plans and purposes upside down. Like Haman, we pray that
> they would be hanged on the gallows they have built for Your
> people. You are the judge of the whole earth; will You not do
> right? How long will You delay in bringing justice to the earth?
> Doesn't it /bother/ You that Your name and Your people are treated
> this way? We know that You are everlastingly good; why are You
> silent in that goodness? We know that You have promised to justify
> and vindicate Your people; rise up, Lord, and scatter Your enemies!
>
> Father, we pray that You would /deal/ with this situation. If it
> is Your good pleasure to deal with it through saving them, then
> that is what we would by far prefer, and it /is/ what we ask for.
> But if it is not Your good pleasure to save them, we ask that You
> would cut them off in their course of sinning regardless, and that
> You would not allow their iniquity to come to its full measure.
> Set limits to Your judgment on them. We pray that You would set
> limits to that judgment by setting limits to their lies and
> treachery. We pray, Father, that You would cut them off in the
> midst of their sin.
>
> We ask that You would deliver us from their snares in a way that
> showcases Your final and ultimate vindication and justification of
> us, together with all Your people. We know that we are sinners,
> and that many just and righteous accusations /could/ be brought
> against us. For the sake of Christ, we pray that we would be
> justified concerning all that we have done that is wrong and
> wicked. But because Christ is our Protector as well as Savior, we
> pray that we would be vindicated and justified with regard to all
> that we have /not/ done wrong. You chastise us for our sins, but
> that is not why these evil men and women attack us—they attack us
> because we love what is good, and because we trust in You.
>
> Father, we pray that the angel of the Lord would chase them down.
> We pray that You would set for them a dark and slippery place, and
> that the angel of the Lord would persecute them there. They have
> hated us without any just cause at all, and they have devised all
> their plots without any good reason. We ask You therefore to rise
> up and defend us. Stand in the pass behind us, and lower Your
> spear against them. Turn them back from their wicked attacks.
> /Rout/ them, we pray. Chase them like chaff in a stiff wind. We
> pray that You would string Your bow, sharpen Your sword, make
> ready all the instruments of death. Ordain Your arrows to fly
> against those who persecute the righteous. Make their mischief to
> roll back on their own impudent heads.
>
> Those who hate us without cause are more than the hairs of our
> heads, and yet, Lord, we know that You have all those hairs
> numbered. You number and name, and note, their hatreds. You know
> our foolishness; You know our sinfulness, and You also know that
> our /sin/ is not why we are being attacked. Rather it is for Your
> sake, and our identification with You. Let their table become
> poisonous to them, let it become a snare. Let their eyes be
> darkened, and judicial blindness fall upon them.
>
> We pray that their eyes would be blinded by You; strike them so
> that they cannot see. Father, we pray that You would make their
> loins shake continuously, that they would be seized with fear and
> amazement. Pour out hot indignation all over them; take hold of
> them tightly in Your wrathful anger. May their dwellings become
> empty and desolate—for whenever You chastise anyone /else/, they
> love to pile on as though You were not there. They persecute the
> one that You are disciplining, and by their talk they dismay the
> one who is suffering under Your hand. Add iniquity to their
> iniquity; make a great heap of their sins. Do not let them enter
> into Your righteousness. Blot them out of the book of the living.
> Do not record their names alongside the names of the righteous.
>
> God of our praise, do not hold Your peace. The mouths of the
> wicked and the mouths of the deceitful have joined in chorus
> together, and they are speaking against us with lying tongue. They
> are surrounding us with words of hatred, and they fight against us
> without good reason. It is because we love You that they are our
> adversaries, but we still give ourselves to prayer. Not only have
> we incurred their hostility by loving You, but we have also loved
> /them/, and have been treacherously betrayed by them. They
> returned evil for good, and hatred for love, ingratitude for kindness.
>
> Let these wicked men come under the rule and reign of wicked men.
> Let Satan be continually at their right hand, accusing them. When
> they come into judgment, when the trial comes, we pray that the
> verdict of guilty would be rendered. When they cry out to You, let
> their prayers be reckoned as sinful. When they pray to You, let
> the ceiling above them remain silent. Cut short their days. When
> they have abused offices within Your Church, let other faithful
> men rise up to take their place.
>
> Let their children be orphaned, cut off without a father. Let
> their wives be widows, and we pray that their children would be
> desolate, having to beg their bread in empty places. We pray that
> the extortioner would come back at them, catching them in their
> plots, and taking all that they have. May strangers and aliens
> pillage them and leave them with nothing. We pray that when this
> happens, and Your hand is evident, that no one would show mercy,
> and that no kindness would be extended to his fatherless children.
> Cut off his posterity; may his name and his line come to nothing.
> Recall how sinful his father was, and call up again the sins of
> his mother. May their sins come before Your throne continually so
> that their name may be blotted out, and remembered on the earth no
> more.
>
> We ask for this because he is merciless. He loved to kick the poor
> and downtrodden, and sought to kill the broken-hearted. He loved
> cursing, and so give him that cursing. He detested blessing, so
> let blessing remain far away from him. He would put on curses like
> a comfortable coat; let those curses of his seep into him deeply.
> Tie those curses around him permanently. Let this be the clothing
> of all our enemies.
>
> Let them curse, so long as You bless. When they get up in the
> morning, and hear of the blessings You have bestowed on us, let
> them be greatly ashamed. Let confusion cover over them completely,
> as though it were a mantle. I pray that You stand at our right
> hand, and that You would always save us from those who would
> condemn our souls.
>
> We offer this pray to You in the righteous and holy name of the
> Lord Jesus Christ, and amen.
>
>
>
>
> Reality:
>
> Gods' Word from Matthew 5: 38 through 48
>
> "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth
> for a tooth.'
>
> But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer.
>
> But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also;
> and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak
> as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the
> second mile.
>
> Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who
> wants to borrow from you.
>
> "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor
> and hate your enemy.'
>
> But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who
> persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in
> heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and
> sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.
>
> For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do
> not even the tax collectors do the same?
>
> And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you
> doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
>
> Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect".
>
>
>
> Gods' Word from Matthew 6: 4 through 8
>
> "And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they
> love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street
> corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you,
> they have received their reward.
>
> But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and
> pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in
> secret will reward you.
>
> "When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the
> Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of
> their many words.
>
> Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before
> you ask him."
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Juanita Flores
> Advocate for the Truth from Jesus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date:
> 3/5/2007 9:41 AM
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>=======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>=======================================================
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20070308/e99cfad2/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list