[Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
g. crabtree
jampot at adelphia.net
Thu Jun 7 07:46:23 PDT 2007
As is more often than not the case, you're a mite wide of the target. The city staff is responsible to the council as a whole, not the member that complains the loudest and longest. As I have said before, it's inevitable that information will come to light between the time that the agenda is set and the council packets are put together. Do you think that this material should be disregarded? If Ament wants to move to table the agenda item that the info pertains to so that he can pour over it a his leisure, that's fine. If the rest of the council doesn't support him in that motion, he needs to live with that decision rather than beat up the staff in a fit of churlish incivility. No matter how much you, Craine, Dickow, Lund and the rest of the usual suspects might wish it otherwise, the council consists of more than Ament and his enormous ego.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
To: "'g. crabtree'" <jampot at adelphia.net>; "'Craine Kit'" <kcraine at verizon.net>; "'Vision 2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
> Thank you, g, for supporting the fact that the city staff is responsible to
> the city council, the ENTIRE city council which includes Councilman Aaron
> Ament.
>
> The city staff cannot be selective as to who, on the city council, they will
> be responsive to and who they will not.
>
> I am surprised but welcome your support in this matter, g.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>
> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: g. crabtree [mailto:jampot at adelphia.net]
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:33 AM
> To: Tom Hansen; 'Craine Kit'; 'Vision 2020'
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>
> Right you are for a change, hansen. The council as a whole, not its most
> juvenile, biased, and strident member.
>
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> To: "'g. crabtree'" <jampot at adelphia.net>; "'Craine Kit'"
> <kcraine at verizon.net>; "'Vision 2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:24 AM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>
>
>>g stated:
>>
>> "Why is pitching a very public fit a better response to last minute
>> information rather than tabling the matter for later consideration?"
>>
>> Yes. I will admit that Councilman Ament was a bit upset concerning the
>> city
>> staff's continuous lack of punctuality on getting information to members
>> of
>> the city council.
>>
>> Councilman Ament has, in the past, made motions to delay decisions on
>> various council matters based upon the staff's lack of punctuality. More
>> often than not these motions had been voted down.
>>
>> Are you suggesting, g, that the city staff is NOT at fault and that,
>> perhaps, Councilman Ament should simply enroll in a speed reading course?
>>
>> Excuse me, but last time I checked city protocol, the staff answers to the
>> council, not vice-versa.
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college
>> students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."
>>
>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>> On Behalf Of g. crabtree
>> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:14 AM
>> To: Craine Kit; Vision 2020
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>>
>> In reverse order;
>>
>> Actually many people "provoke" a negative response from me, being female
>> doesn't make you anything special.
>>
>> A decision based on incomplete information is almost always not a good
>> one.
>>
>> Reread my comments. Perhaps even respond to my actual point. Why is
>> pitching
>>
>> a very public fit a better response to last minute information rather than
>> tabling the matter for later consideration? Barring that why not everyone
>> simply take a few minutes and read the information presented? It would use
>> up less time than ranting and be more productive and sure as hell more
>> considerate and mature.
>>
>> Lastly, I can generally tell that you are not hansen despite some striking
>> similarities. In this case I feel sure I made that clear by writing,"in
>> an
>> aside to hansen." This is an open forum and when people post they are not
>> posting privately or nessaccarily directly or exclusively to the sender.
>> If
>>
>> you want one on one get yourself a pen pal.
>>
>> g
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
>> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>>
>>
>>> Excuse me, g.
>>>
>>> First, I am not "hansen". If you want to piss on him, do it in
>>> response to one of his posts.
>>>
>>> Second, reread my comments. I, as a taxpayer in this city, expect my
>>> elected representatives understand what they are voting on before
>>> they say yea or nay. I, as a citizen, need to know what information
>>> will be used in a decision IF I am going to make an informed comment.
>>> Neither I nor the Council can fully consider the consequences of a
>>> decision if essential facts are presented as the Councilors walk into
>>> a meeting. Staff being allowed to insert information at the last
>>> minute is a question of TIMING, not a target of someone's "pique."
>>>
>>> A decision based on last minute input is NOT necessarily a good one.
>>>
>>> Kit Craine (a female who always provikes a negative response from g.)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 3:42 PM, g. crabtree wrote:
>>>
>>>> "When important information arrives too
>>>> late to fit into the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled
>>>> until the next meeting."
>>>>
>>>> So why does Ament not simply make that motion? In what way is the
>>>> process improved by his treating the staff and the audience both
>>>> televised and in attendance to yet another of his famous fits of
>>>> pique? I would think that there will always be the potential for
>>>> new or updated information to come in after the meetings agenda has
>>>> been set and the packets put together, running down the staff for
>>>> trying to make sure he has the most up to date information possible
>>>> is unappreciative and crass.
>>>>
>>>> As an aside for hansen: As a youth, had I told one of my peers to
>>>> "shut up" I would have likely been admonished and sent on my way.
>>>> Had I thrown a public hissy fit, spreading my juvenile attitude
>>>> over people who were trying to help me, I'd most certainly have
>>>> been shown a far harsher discipline.
>>>>
>>>> g
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craine Kit" <kcraine at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>; "Vision 2020"
>>>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> Cc: "Stout Bob" <bstout at ci.moscow.id.us>; "Ament Aaron"
>>>> <aaronament at moscow.com>; "Lambert Bill" <blambert at ci.moscow.id.us>;
>>>> "Chaney Nancy" <nchaney at ci.moscow.id.us>; <sears at moscow.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:41 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I agree with Aaron Ament. The City Council is conducting the people's
>>>>> business: making contracts, passing laws, and--most importantly--
>>>>> spending our money. Just as a smart person takes time to read and
>>>>> understand the fine print in a contract before signing it, I expect
>>>>> our representatives to do no less when committing our community and
>>>>> our dollars to something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore, we--the people--have a right to participate in our
>>>>> government. We should be able to review the same information the
>>>>> Council will see so we can make informed comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither the Council nor the people can do their jobs well when
>>>>> pertinent information is not available until just before a decision
>>>>> is made. That has nothing to do with the competence of the staff and
>>>>> everything to do with timing. When important information arrives too
>>>>> late to fit into the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled
>>>>> until the next meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kit Craine
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 5, 2007, at 4:12 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Visionaires:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No matter how you feel about the issue that was under discussion,
>>>>>> I am
>>>>>> absolutely appalled at John Weber's behavior during last night's
>>>>>> City
>>>>>> Council meeting :-( For him to publicly tell another Council
>>>>>> member with
>>>>>> whom he disagrees to "shut up" is simply beyond the pale. Stupid
>>>>>> mistakes
>>>>>> like that do far more to harm our community than do honest
>>>>>> disagreements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What happened to your manners, Mr. Weber? Did you not stop to
>>>>>> ***think***
>>>>>> about your behavior being televised into homes in our community?!?
>>>>>> Even my
>>>>>> 17-year-old knows it's incredibly rude and disrespectful to tell
>>>>>> another to
>>>>>> "shut up." She, BTW, was gleefully (I'm sorry to say) horrified
>>>>>> reading
>>>>>> about your spectacle last night. I had to explain to her I was
>>>>>> sure your
>>>>>> mother *had* raised you better, but people sometimes make mistakes
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> heat of the moment or not, as she well knows, and that when you
>>>>>> make a
>>>>>> mistake, you apologize, learn from the mistake, and carry on.
>>>>>> "Where's his
>>>>>> apology?" was her question. It's mine, too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're waiting for an apology, Mr. Weber -- one is certainly due
>>>>>> from you to
>>>>>> all who witnessed or read about your rude and disrespectful
>>>>>> behavior last
>>>>>> night.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Saundra Lund
>>>>>> Moscow, ID
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
>>>>>> to do
>>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>> - Edmund Burke
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moscow-Pullman Daily News
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Big-box changes nixed
>>>>>> By Omie Drawhorn, Daily News staff writer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - Page Updated at 12:00:00 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tempers flared at Monday night's Moscow City Council meeting,
>>>>>> during which
>>>>>> the council rejected any amendments to the large retail
>>>>>> establishment
>>>>>> ordinance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We already have a dark-store ordinance in there that is stronger
>>>>>> than what
>>>>>> planning and zoning brought us," Councilman Aaron Ament said. "I
>>>>>> want to see
>>>>>> a cap. A cap would serve this community well. We have a big-box
>>>>>> shopping
>>>>>> culture that's just about run its course in this country; we're
>>>>>> making sure
>>>>>> they mitigate for problems they cause the community. Moscow would
>>>>>> be crazy
>>>>>> to drop all the rest and just let them come into the city on
>>>>>> their own
>>>>>> terms."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ament went on to say he was frustrated that Moscow city staff
>>>>>> members hand
>>>>>> him important documents just minutes before the start of a meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I'm so tired of coming to sit down and have people flip papers for
>>>>>> me to
>>>>>> read," he said. "I seriously read everything put in the packet, and
>>>>>> I find
>>>>>> it insulting for them to expect me to read it in a couple of
>>>>>> minutes."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At that point, Councilman John Weber interrupted Ament.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We have pretty qualified people over here who do a very good job;
>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>> need you running off on them," he said. "Why don't you just shut
>>>>>> up?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moscow Mayor Nancy Chaney said Weber interrupted Ament at "the
>>>>>> appropriate
>>>>>> time."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I hope we can retrieve a little civility on all sides,"
>>>>>> Councilwoman Linda
>>>>>> Pall said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The amendments recommended by the planning and zoning commission
>>>>>> included:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A large retail establishment would have to expand by at least 30
>>>>>> percent
>>>>>> before it would be required to apply for a conditional use permit;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Big-box stores between 40,000 and 65,000 square feet would be
>>>>>> subject to the
>>>>>> design manual - which includes standards for the exterior and
>>>>>> interior of
>>>>>> buildings - at the discretion of the board of adjustment;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any business requiring 140 or fewer parking spaces would not be
>>>>>> subject to
>>>>>> the parking requirements of the design manual;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Size be based on gross floor space as opposed to projected roof
>>>>>> area,
>>>>>> thereby eliminating outdoor storage areas from the calculated square
>>>>>> footage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The planning and zoning commission also recommended a guideline for
>>>>>> stores
>>>>>> that go dark in Moscow to follow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The large retail establishment ordinance, passed in February 2006,
>>>>>> requires
>>>>>> retail stores with more than 40,000 square feet of gross floor area
>>>>>> to apply
>>>>>> for a conditional use permit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The council heard public testimony on the proposed amendments May 7.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Councilman Bill Lambert said the conditional use permit process
>>>>>> already
>>>>>> gives the city enough control on which businesses are allowed to
>>>>>> locate
>>>>>> within the city.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The big-box ordinance as it stands now is a tough enough ordinance
>>>>>> we're
>>>>>> not going to need (amendments) like this to prevail," he said. "The
>>>>>> dark-store issue can be dealt with at the time the conditional use
>>>>>> permit is
>>>>>> requested."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Weber agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "With the dark store ordinance, what we have done here is put in
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> verbiage that would make it almost impossible for anybody from the
>>>>>> city to
>>>>>> enforce or get a handle on," he said. "We've choked it off to the
>>>>>> point that
>>>>>> nobody really wants to come here anyway."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other business, the council reversed a board of adjustment
>>>>>> decision that
>>>>>> granted a conditional use permit for a proposed a Dutch Bros.
>>>>>> coffee outlet
>>>>>> with a drive-through window at 525 S. Jackson St.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> QUICKREAD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WHAT HAPPENED: The Moscow City Council rejected amendments to the
>>>>>> large
>>>>>> retail establishment ordinance recommended by the planning and
>>>>>> zoning
>>>>>> commission.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WHAT IT MEANS: The large retail establishment ordinance will not
>>>>>> include a
>>>>>> size cap. The original dark-store provision remains the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WHAT HAPPENS NEXT: The ordinance will remain as originally written.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WHY YOU SHOULD CARE: The ordinance affects businesses greater than
>>>>>> 40,000
>>>>>> square feet that want to move into Moscow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Omie Drawhorn can be reached at (208) 882-5561, ext. 234, or by e-
>>>>>> mail at
>>>>>> odrawhorn at dnews.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> =======================================================
>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> =======================================================
>>>
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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