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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As is more often than not the case, you're a
mite wide of the target. The city staff is responsible to the council as a
whole, not the member that complains the loudest and longest. As I have said
before, it's inevitable that information will come to light between the time
that the agenda is set and the council packets are put together. Do you think
that this material should be disregarded? If Ament wants to move to table
the agenda item that the info pertains to so that he can pour over it a his
leisure, that's fine. If the rest of the council doesn't support him in that
motion, he needs to live with that decision rather than beat up the staff in a
fit of churlish incivility. No matter how much you, Craine, Dickow, Lund and the
rest of the usual suspects might wish it otherwise, the council consists of more
than Ament and his enormous ego.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Tom Hansen" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>thansen@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: "'g. crabtree'" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "'Craine
Kit'" <</FONT><A href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kcraine@verizon.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "'Vision
2020'" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:40 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for
Moscow</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> Thank you, g, for supporting the fact that the city staff is
responsible to<BR>> the city council, the ENTIRE city council which includes
Councilman Aaron<BR>> Ament.<BR>> <BR>> The city staff cannot be
selective as to who, on the city council, they will<BR>> be responsive to and
who they will not.<BR>> <BR>> I am surprised but welcome your support in
this matter, g.<BR>> <BR>> Tom Hansen<BR>> Moscow, Idaho <BR>>
<BR>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The
college<BR>> students are not very active in local elections (thank
goodness!)."<BR>> <BR>> - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)<BR>> <BR>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>> From: g. crabtree
[mailto:jampot@adelphia.net] <BR>> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:33
AM<BR>> To: Tom Hansen; 'Craine Kit'; 'Vision 2020'<BR>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] A Sad Night for Moscow<BR>> <BR>> Right you are for a change,
hansen. The council as a whole, not its most <BR>> juvenile, biased, and
strident member.<BR>> <BR>> g<BR>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> From: "Tom Hansen" <</FONT><A href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>thansen@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>> To: "'g. crabtree'" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "'Craine
Kit'" <BR>> <</FONT><A href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kcraine@verizon.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "'Vision
2020'" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:24 AM<BR>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] A Sad
Night for Moscow<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>>g stated:<BR>>><BR>>>
"Why is pitching a very public fit a better response to last minute<BR>>>
information rather than tabling the matter for later
consideration?"<BR>>><BR>>> Yes. I will admit that Councilman
Ament was a bit upset concerning the <BR>>> city<BR>>> staff's
continuous lack of punctuality on getting information to members <BR>>>
of<BR>>> the city council.<BR>>><BR>>> Councilman Ament has,
in the past, made motions to delay decisions on<BR>>> various council
matters based upon the staff's lack of punctuality. More<BR>>> often
than not these motions had been voted down.<BR>>><BR>>> Are you
suggesting, g, that the city staff is NOT at fault and that,<BR>>>
perhaps, Councilman Ament should simply enroll in a speed reading
course?<BR>>><BR>>> Excuse me, but last time I checked city
protocol, the staff answers to the<BR>>> council, not
vice-versa.<BR>>><BR>>> Seeya round town,
Moscow.<BR>>><BR>>> Tom Hansen<BR>>> Moscow,
Idaho<BR>>><BR>>> "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college
students. The college<BR>>> students are not very active in local
elections (thank goodness!)."<BR>>><BR>>> - Dale Courtney (March 28,
2007)<BR>>><BR>>> -----Original Message-----<BR>>> From:
</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>
[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<BR>>> On Behalf Of g.
crabtree<BR>>> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:14 AM<BR>>> To:
Craine Kit; Vision 2020<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for
Moscow<BR>>><BR>>> In reverse order;<BR>>><BR>>>
Actually many people "provoke" a negative response from me, being
female<BR>>> doesn't make you anything special.<BR>>><BR>>> A
decision based on incomplete information is almost always not a good
<BR>>> one.<BR>>><BR>>> Reread my comments. Perhaps even
respond to my actual point. Why is <BR>>> pitching<BR>>><BR>>>
a very public fit a better response to last minute information rather
than<BR>>> tabling the matter for later consideration? Barring that why
not everyone<BR>>> simply take a few minutes and read the information
presented? It would use<BR>>> up less time than ranting and be more
productive and sure as hell more<BR>>> considerate and
mature.<BR>>><BR>>> Lastly, I can generally tell that you are not
hansen despite some striking<BR>>> similarities. In this case I feel
sure I made that clear by writing,"in <BR>>> an<BR>>> aside to
hansen." This is an open forum and when people post they are
not<BR>>> posting privately or nessaccarily directly or exclusively to
the sender. <BR>>> If<BR>>><BR>>> you want one on one
get yourself a pen pal.<BR>>><BR>>> g<BR>>> ----- Original
Message ----- <BR>>> From: "Craine Kit" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kcraine@verizon.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>>
To: "Vision 2020" <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 12:09 AM<BR>>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for
Moscow<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> Excuse me,
g.<BR>>>><BR>>>> First, I am not "hansen". If you want to piss
on him, do it in<BR>>>> response to one of his
posts.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Second, reread my comments. I, as a
taxpayer in this city, expect my<BR>>>> elected representatives
understand what they are voting on before<BR>>>> they say yea or nay.
I, as a citizen, need to know what information<BR>>>> will be used in a
decision IF I am going to make an informed comment.<BR>>>> Neither I
nor the Council can fully consider the consequences of a<BR>>>>
decision if essential facts are presented as the Councilors walk
into<BR>>>> a meeting. Staff being allowed to insert information at the
last<BR>>>> minute is a question of TIMING, not a target of
someone's "pique."<BR>>>><BR>>>> A decision based on last
minute input is NOT necessarily a good one.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Kit
Craine (a female who always provikes a negative response from
g.)<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> On Jun 6, 2007, at 3:42 PM,
g. crabtree wrote:<BR>>>><BR>>>>> "When important
information arrives too<BR>>>>> late to fit into the packet, perhaps
the matter should be tabled<BR>>>>> until the next
meeting."<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> So why does Ament not simply
make that motion? In what way is the<BR>>>>> process improved by his
treating the staff and the audience both<BR>>>>> televised and in
attendance to yet another of his famous fits of<BR>>>>> pique? I
would think that there will always be the potential for<BR>>>>> new
or updated information to come in after the meetings agenda
has<BR>>>>> been set and the packets put together, running down the
staff for<BR>>>>> trying to make sure he has the most up to date
information possible<BR>>>>> is unappreciative and
crass.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> As an aside for hansen: As a
youth, had I told one of my peers to<BR>>>>> "shut up" I would have
likely been admonished and sent on my way.<BR>>>>> Had I thrown a
public hissy fit, spreading my juvenile attitude<BR>>>>> over people
who were trying to help me, I'd most certainly have<BR>>>>> been
shown a far harsher discipline.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
g<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Craine Kit" <</FONT><A href="mailto:kcraine@verizon.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kcraine@verizon.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> To: "Saundra Lund" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:sslund@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>sslund@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "Vision
2020"<BR>>>>> <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> Cc: "Stout Bob" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:bstout@ci.moscow.id.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bstout@ci.moscow.id.us</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "Ament
Aaron"<BR>>>>> <</FONT><A
href="mailto:aaronament@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>aaronament@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "Lambert
Bill" <</FONT><A href="mailto:blambert@ci.moscow.id.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>blambert@ci.moscow.id.us</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>;<BR>>>>> "Chaney Nancy" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:nchaney@ci.moscow.id.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nchaney@ci.moscow.id.us</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:sears@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>sears@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 10:41
AM<BR>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Sad Night for
Moscow<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>> I agree
with Aaron Ament. The City Council is conducting the
people's<BR>>>>>> business: making contracts, passing laws,
and--most importantly--<BR>>>>>> spending our money. Just as a
smart person takes time to read and<BR>>>>>> understand the fine
print in a contract before signing it, I expect<BR>>>>>> our
representatives to do no less when committing our community
and<BR>>>>>> our dollars to
something.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Furthermore, we--the
people--have a right to participate in our<BR>>>>>> government.
We should be able to review the same information the<BR>>>>>>
Council will see so we can make informed
comments.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Neither the Council
nor the people can do their jobs well when<BR>>>>>> pertinent
information is not available until just before a
decision<BR>>>>>> is made. That has nothing to do with the
competence of the staff and<BR>>>>>> everything to do with
timing. When important information arrives too<BR>>>>>> late to
fit into the packet, perhaps the matter should be tabled<BR>>>>>>
until the next meeting.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Kit
Craine<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
On Jun 5, 2007, at 4:12 PM, Saundra Lund
wrote:<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Visionaires:<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> No matter
how you feel about the issue that was under
discussion,<BR>>>>>>> I am<BR>>>>>>>
absolutely appalled at John Weber's behavior during last
night's<BR>>>>>>> City<BR>>>>>>> Council
meeting :-( For him to publicly tell another
Council<BR>>>>>>> member with<BR>>>>>>> whom
he disagrees to "shut up" is simply beyond the pale.
Stupid<BR>>>>>>> mistakes<BR>>>>>>> like
that do far more to harm our community than do
honest<BR>>>>>>>
disagreements.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> What
happened to your manners, Mr. Weber? Did you not stop
to<BR>>>>>>> ***think***<BR>>>>>>> about
your behavior being televised into homes in our
community?!?<BR>>>>>>> Even my<BR>>>>>>>
17-year-old knows it's incredibly rude and disrespectful to
tell<BR>>>>>>> another to<BR>>>>>>> "shut
up." She, BTW, was gleefully (I'm sorry to say)
horrified<BR>>>>>>> reading<BR>>>>>>> about
your spectacle last night. I had to explain to her I
was<BR>>>>>>> sure your<BR>>>>>>> mother
*had* raised you better, but people sometimes make
mistakes<BR>>>>>>> in the<BR>>>>>>> heat of
the moment or not, as she well knows, and that when
you<BR>>>>>>> make a<BR>>>>>>> mistake, you
apologize, learn from the mistake, and carry on.<BR>>>>>>>
"Where's his<BR>>>>>>> apology?" was her question. It's
mine, too.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> We're waiting
for an apology, Mr. Weber -- one is certainly due<BR>>>>>>>
from you to<BR>>>>>>> all who witnessed or read about your
rude and disrespectful<BR>>>>>>> behavior
last<BR>>>>>>>
night.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Saundra Lund<BR>>>>>>> Moscow,
ID<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> The only thing
necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people<BR>>>>>>>
to do<BR>>>>>>> nothing.<BR>>>>>>> - Edmund
Burke<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Moscow-Pullman
Daily News<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Big-box
changes nixed<BR>>>>>>> By Omie Drawhorn, Daily News staff
writer<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Tuesday, June 5,
2007 - Page Updated at 12:00:00
AM<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Tempers flared at
Monday night's Moscow City Council meeting,<BR>>>>>>> during
which<BR>>>>>>> the council rejected any amendments to the
large retail<BR>>>>>>>
establishment<BR>>>>>>>
ordinance.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> "We already
have a dark-store ordinance in there that is
stronger<BR>>>>>>> than what<BR>>>>>>>
planning and zoning brought us," Councilman Aaron Ament said.
"I<BR>>>>>>> want to see<BR>>>>>>> a cap. A
cap would serve this community well. We have a
big-box<BR>>>>>>> shopping<BR>>>>>>> culture
that's just about run its course in this country;
we're<BR>>>>>>> making sure<BR>>>>>>> they
mitigate for problems they cause the community. Moscow
would<BR>>>>>>> be crazy<BR>>>>>>> to drop
all the rest and just let them come into the city on<BR>>>>>>>
their own<BR>>>>>>>
terms."<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Ament went on to
say he was frustrated that Moscow city staff<BR>>>>>>> members
hand<BR>>>>>>> him important documents just minutes before the
start of a meeting.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> "I'm
so tired of coming to sit down and have people flip papers
for<BR>>>>>>> me to<BR>>>>>>> read," he
said. "I seriously read everything put in the packet,
and<BR>>>>>>> I find<BR>>>>>>> it insulting
for them to expect me to read it in a couple of<BR>>>>>>>
minutes."<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> At that point,
Councilman John Weber interrupted
Ament.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> "We have pretty
qualified people over here who do a very good job;<BR>>>>>>> I
don't<BR>>>>>>> need you running off on them," he said. "Why
don't you just shut<BR>>>>>>>
up?"<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Moscow Mayor Nancy
Chaney said Weber interrupted Ament at "the<BR>>>>>>>
appropriate<BR>>>>>>>
time."<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> "I hope we can
retrieve a little civility on all sides,"<BR>>>>>>>
Councilwoman Linda<BR>>>>>>> Pall
said.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> The amendments
recommended by the planning and zoning commission<BR>>>>>>>
included:<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> A large retail
establishment would have to expand by at least 30<BR>>>>>>>
percent<BR>>>>>>> before it would be required to apply for a
conditional use permit;<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Big-box stores between 40,000 and 65,000 square feet would
be<BR>>>>>>> subject to the<BR>>>>>>> design
manual - which includes standards for the exterior
and<BR>>>>>>> interior of<BR>>>>>>>
buildings - at the discretion of the board of
adjustment;<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Any business
requiring 140 or fewer parking spaces would not be<BR>>>>>>>
subject to<BR>>>>>>> the parking requirements of the design
manual;<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Size be based on
gross floor space as opposed to projected roof<BR>>>>>>>
area,<BR>>>>>>> thereby eliminating outdoor storage areas from
the calculated square<BR>>>>>>>
footage.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> The planning
and zoning commission also recommended a guideline
for<BR>>>>>>> stores<BR>>>>>>> that go dark
in Moscow to follow.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> The
large retail establishment ordinance, passed in February
2006,<BR>>>>>>> requires<BR>>>>>>> retail
stores with more than 40,000 square feet of gross floor
area<BR>>>>>>> to apply<BR>>>>>>> for a
conditional use permit.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
The council heard public testimony on the proposed amendments May
7.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Councilman Bill
Lambert said the conditional use permit process<BR>>>>>>>
already<BR>>>>>>> gives the city enough control on which
businesses are allowed to<BR>>>>>>>
locate<BR>>>>>>> within the
city.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> "The big-box
ordinance as it stands now is a tough enough
ordinance<BR>>>>>>> we're<BR>>>>>>> not
going to need (amendments) like this to prevail," he said.
"The<BR>>>>>>> dark-store issue can be dealt with at the time
the conditional use<BR>>>>>>> permit
is<BR>>>>>>>
requested."<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Weber
agreed.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> "With the dark
store ordinance, what we have done here is put in<BR>>>>>>>
some<BR>>>>>>> verbiage that would make it almost impossible
for anybody from the<BR>>>>>>> city
to<BR>>>>>>> enforce or get a handle on," he said. "We've
choked it off to the<BR>>>>>>> point
that<BR>>>>>>> nobody really wants to come here
anyway."<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> In other
business, the council reversed a board of adjustment<BR>>>>>>>
decision that<BR>>>>>>> granted a conditional use permit for a
proposed a Dutch Bros.<BR>>>>>>> coffee
outlet<BR>>>>>>> with a drive-through window at 525 S. Jackson
St.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
QUICKREAD<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> WHAT HAPPENED:
The Moscow City Council rejected amendments to the<BR>>>>>>>
large<BR>>>>>>> retail establishment ordinance recommended by
the planning and<BR>>>>>>> zoning<BR>>>>>>>
commission.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> WHAT IT
MEANS: The large retail establishment ordinance will
not<BR>>>>>>> include a<BR>>>>>>> size cap.
The original dark-store provision remains the
same.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> WHAT HAPPENS NEXT:
The ordinance will remain as originally
written.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> WHY YOU SHOULD
CARE: The ordinance affects businesses greater than<BR>>>>>>>
40,000<BR>>>>>>> square feet that want to move into
Moscow.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Omie Drawhorn
can be reached at (208) 882-5561, ext. 234, or by e-<BR>>>>>>>
mail at<BR>>>>>>> </FONT><A
href="mailto:odrawhorn@dnews.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>odrawhorn@dnews.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>>>
List services made available by First Step
Internet,<BR>>>>>>> serving the communities of the
Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>>>>>
serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
=======================================================<BR>>> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>> </FONT><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>>
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