[Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads
pkraut at moscow.com
pkraut at moscow.com
Tue Jun 5 17:26:26 PDT 2007
The problem is that too many on this list would not know the leading
questions of an intelligent conversation. Ellen, J and others are quick to
leap to personal attacks with no real understanding of the person or
subject. In private I and others discuss the issues without the meanness
and inability to see beyond the current PC expectations that some are wont
to jump into. J you have no idea what I wanted to do and for you to assume
you do is ludacris. To my knowledge I have not met you nor ever had a
conversation with you so how do you assume to know what I wanted?? Once
again you set yourself up as monitor of this web site with no power!!
> Point is, Pat, you did not want to have a conversation you wanted to
make a
> point. Another issue is - what was that point?!!!
>
> If you can't or are choosing to ignore questioning of your e-mails be
kind
> enough to not bother. Just clogs the arteries of the computer e-mail
> system, don't ya know!
>
>
> J :]
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads
> >Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 21:52:16 -0700
> >
> >OK...I am sorry for wanting to have a conversation that would have
history
> >and the actions of others in it but some of you do not seem to be able
to
> >go
> >along. So, I am dropping the subject and please be aware that you do not
> >know anything about me or my thoughts about anything.
> >Perhaps this is too complicated a subject for an email site where-in we
> >cannot see nor hear the inflection of voice...but jump to many
judgements
> >nontheless.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>
> >To: "'Pat Kraut'" <pkraut at moscow.com>; "'vision2020'"
> ><vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:44 AM
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads
> >
> >
> >Hi Pat,
> >
> >So, the reverse would hold true as well, correct? "The church" (and
please
> >clarify what you mean by "the church") has no right to try to force the
> >State to do something it is against, right? If "the church" wants to do
> >something, it should go for it, but the State should not be forced into
> >anything by "the church", right?
> >
> >And, we can count on you to stand up and speak out against "the church"
> >trying to force the state into things, right?
> >
> >Of course, I don't agree with your premise for ***obvious*** reasons,
but
> >I'm just wanting to make sure you're consistent, at least :-)
> >
> >
> >Saundra Lund
> >Moscow, ID
> >
> >The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to
do
> >nothing.
> >- Edmund Burke
> >
> >***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life
> >plus
> >70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
outside
> >the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> >author.*****
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-
bounces at moscow.com]
> >On Behalf Of Pat Kraut
> >Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:18 PM
> >To: vision2020
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads
> >
> >The state has no right to force the church to do something it is
against.
> >If
> >the state wants to do it...go for it...but the church should not be
forced
> >into anything.
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> >To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 4:41 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Jeb Bush Featured in Gay Marriage Ads
> >
> >
> >Why is it not a state issue? Why not open it up so that any two
> >consenting adults can marry each other and gain the benefits that
> >heterosexual couples currently enjoy? The individual churches can still
> >refuse to marry any two people based upon whatever criteria they care to
> >name. There are plenty of religions that don't have a problem with it.
> >So why should they be restricted in what they can do simply because some
> >other groups does have a problem with it? This is why the separation of
> >church and state is a good thing. It provides a framework that people
> >of all different creeds can use as they see fit.
> >
> >I really wish church leaders would govern their own flocks, and stop
> >trying to control all the other faiths.
> >
> >Paul
> >
> >pkraut at moscow.com wrote:
> > > You are trying to argue with the state and this is a church issue.
The
> > > church does not want to marry homosexuals because the bible talks
about
> >it
> > > being an no-no. The church also questioned marrying outside of their
> > > religion and race because the bible suggests it is not a good thing.
By
> > > taking the issue to the church you would actually have to discuss
this
> > > problem with some reality which of course is why it is presented to
the
> > > state. If the church decided to marry outside of race you need to
seek
> >the
> > > answer from churches. There are churches that are willing to marry
> > > homosexuals also...with some of the same problems that happened when
> >some
> > > chose to marry outside of race.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> >From today's (June 3, 2007) Spokesman Review -
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Jeb Bush featured in gay marriage ads
> > >> Lesley Clark
> > >> McClatchy
> > >> June 3, 2007
> > >>
> > >> WASHINGTON - Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, the poster child for gay
> > >> marriage?
> > >>
> > >> A coalition of civil rights groups that back gay marriage is using
> > >>
> > > photos of
> > >
> > >> prominent couples like the former Republican governor and his
Mexican-
> > >>
> > > born
> > >
> > >> wife, Columba, in an advertising campaign marking the 40th
anniversary
> >of
> > >> Loving v. Virginia, a U.S. Supreme Court decision that gave
interracial
> > >> couples the right to marry.
> > >>
> > >> The groups say they hope to use the couples and the court case to
> >bolster
> > >> their contention that marriage is a civil right that should know no
> > >>
> > > bounds -
> > >
> > >> even for those of the same sex.
> > >>
> > >> "We're honoring and celebrating something that just over 40 years
ago
> > >>
> > > some
> > >
> > >> Americans said was immoral and wrong and could not happen," said
Jimmy
> > >> Creech, the executive director of Faith in America, a gay rights
> >advocacy
> > >> group that is bankrolling the ad campaign. "We're celebrating the
> >wisdom
> > >> that prejudice and bigotry was removed from the law books and
Americans
> > >>
> > > were
> > >
> > >> given the right to marry the person they loved, regardless of race."
> > >>
> > >> The "Freedom to Marry" advertising campaign - to be launched
Monday -
> > >> consists of six ads that will run in two Capitol Hill publications,
> >Roll
> > >> Call and Politico. They feature photos of interracial couples like
> >golfer
> > >> Tiger Woods and his wife, Elin, and former U.S. Defense Secretary
Bill
> > >>
> > > Cohen
> > >
> > >> and his wife, Janet Langhart, who have authored a book about their
> > >>
> > > marriage,
> > >
> > >> "Love in Black and White." Couples married to someone of a different
> > >> ethnicity, like the Bushes, are also featured.
> > >>
> > >> The ads note that 16 states still banned interracial marriages
until
> >the
> > >> Supreme Court struck down a Virginia law in 1967, finding "the
freedom
> >to
> > >> marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights
> > >>
> > > essential
> > >
> > >> to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."
> > >>
> > >> "Jeb and Columba Bush couldn't marry today if discrimination were
still
> > >>
> > > the
> > >
> > >> law of the land," the ad that features the former Florida first
couple
> > >> reads.
> > >>
> > >> Bush didn't respond to a request for comment. But John Stemberger,
an
> > >> Orlando attorney who is spearheading a petition drive to put a gay
> > >>
> > > marriage
> > >
> > >> ban up for a vote in Florida in 2008, called the ads "a little bit
> > >>
> > > silly."
> > >
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Seeya round town, Moscow.
> > >>
> > >> Tom Hansen
> > >> Moscow, Idaho
> > >>
> > >> "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma,
in
> > >> Albany, Georgia and St. Augustine, Florida, and many other
campaigns of
> > >>
> > > the
> > >
> > >> Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were
> > >>
> > > fighting
> > >
> > >> for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their
own,
> > >>
> > > and
> > >
> > >> I salute their contributions."
> > >>
> > >> - Coretta Scott King (March 30, 1998)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> =======================================================
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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