[Vision2020] [Bulk] Re: Follow up - Islam the religion of peace!
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Fri Jun 1 19:24:10 PDT 2007
I could see arguing that the words of Jesus were misinterpreted over the
centuries or that religious leaders were religious only in name and not
in deed, but to argue that the Church was not "bloody minded" is just
plain wrong.
You have the Crusades, for a start. Wars against the Muslims sanctioned
by the Pope. At least nine of them, not counting ones like the
Albigensian Crusade and the Northern Crusades which were against Europeans.
In Germany, Charlemagne killed 4500 newly-converted christians who where
caught practicing paganism in one day. He is thought to have killed tens
of thousands of people in his efforts to convert them to christianity.
The Teutonic Knights gave the citizens of Prussia, Lithuania, and Poland
a choice - convert or be killed immediately. There was a death sentence
for practicing paganism after being baptized.
There is also the Spanish Inquisition, as well as other inquisitions.
All sanctioned by the Church, including the use of torture (via the
Papal Bull Ad exstirpanda in 1252). Thousands burned at the stake, who
knows how many tortured. Hundreds of thousands accused who had to stand
trial.
You also have the witch burnings of the 17th century. 12545 deaths
recorded, with estimates between 35000 and 63000. Mostly burned at the
stake, although some were hanged and some were drowned. You can find
copies of the Malleus Maleficarum occasionally in bookstores today if
you are interested in what the punishments were and how the trials were
conducted.
Now, I'm not a scholar of christian history, but if even a portion of
the above actually happened - then I would definitely say that it falls
under the term "bloody-minded". Now whether or not Islam can out-bloody
the Church, I have no idea. But they would have to be pretty bad to
measure up. And even if they did, does it make the above any less
gruesome knowing that it wasn't just confined to that one faith?
There is something rotten in Denmark when we have to justify ourselves
by comparing the exact numbers of deaths and tortures in our histories.
Paul
g. crabtree wrote:
> And I still contend that The Church has never been as savage or
> outright bloody minded. Adding up the numbers over time, the greater
> number of deaths have occurred at the hands of the followers of the
> "religion of peace" than the Roman Catholic Church. Up to the eleventh
> century Islam had a sizable lead. From 1095 to 1291 The Church picked
> up the pace and nosed ahead. It was neck and neck till 1834 and the
> end of the Spanish Inquisition. After that Allah's chosen made it no
> contest.
> g
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Sue Hovey <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com>
> *To:* g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at adelphia.net> ; deb
> <mailto:debismith at moscow.com> ; Carl Westberg
> <mailto:carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com> ; vision2020 at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 01, 2007 3:21 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Follow up - Islam the religion of peace!
>
> No, you very specifically said, "At no point in history did The
> Church act in such a savage manner." A later apology doesn't erase
> the historical act.
> SH
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at adelphia.net>
> *To:* Sue Hovey <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com> ; deb
> <mailto:debismith at moscow.com> ; Carl Westberg
> <mailto:carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com> ; vision2020 at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 01, 2007 1:34 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Follow up - Islam the religion of
> peace!
>
> Sorry Ms. Hovey, I was quite awake and paying rapt attention.
> I'm not saying the inquisition wasn't a horror show but at
> least roving bands of blood thirsty Christians didn't hack you
> down in the middle of the street, or use children to blow up
> other children, or lob explosives into civilian neighborhoods,
> fly jumbo jets full of innocents into skyscrapers, the list
> goes on and on.
> The Church has apologized for the hideous behavior of the
> inquisition and the crusades, which occurred during the
> eleventh through the thirteenth century. Can you point out
> where the followers of Allah have done the same, considering
> that their reign of terror has run from its inception in 622
> up through today?
> In the Sudan 1.3 million dead or in slavery in a country of 5
> million for not the crime of not being muslim. I could go on
> like this all afternoon. I never said Mother Church had no
> blood on it's hands but "the religion of peace" is making it
> look like a rank amateur when it comes to the senseless
> slaughter of the innocent.
> g
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Sue Hovey <mailto:suehovey at moscow.com>
> *To:* g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at adelphia.net> ; deb
> <mailto:debismith at moscow.com> ; Carl Westberg
> <mailto:carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com> ;
> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 01, 2007 9:28 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Follow up - Islam the religion
> of peace!
>
> Gary...Quoting you, "At no point in history did The Church
> act in such a savage manner." Obviously your history
> education took a detour around the Spanish Inquisition.
> Sue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* g. crabtree <mailto:jampot at adelphia.net>
> *To:* deb <mailto:debismith at moscow.com> ; Carl
> Westberg <mailto:carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com> ;
> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 01, 2007 7:29 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Follow up - Islam the
> religion of peace!
>
> Ms. Smith
> So what "facts" would you have had me attack? The fact
> that a small (in relation to the greater islamic
> community, large in overall numbers) group of blood
> thirsty fanatics will gleefully beat (or worse) a
> non-muslim to death at the drop of a hat for an
> offense so slight that Christians wouldn't think twice
> about it, much less perceive it as a mortal offense
> against their all powerful God? Can't do it. Also feel
> free to spare me the historical ignorance routine. At
> no point in history did The Church act in such a
> savage manner.
> As long as you're feeling meddlesome, you might as
> well point out exactly where I "attacked" Carl.
> Subsequent communication that I have had with him
> leads me to believe that he and I are cool with one
> another and that he did not consider himself
> personally attacked. Either way, Carl is a big boy and
> I'm sure if he has a problem with what I post he'll
> let me know, we'll discuss it, work it out, and part
> friends. Your mediation most assuredly won't be required.
> Lastly, I fail to see where you manage to follow your
> own sage advise and attack my facts and not me
> personally. Perhaps you should reach into your well
> stocked broom closet and sweep before yer own door
> prior to taking on the burden of mine.
> g
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "deb" <debismith at moscow.com
> <mailto:debismith at moscow.com>>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net
> <mailto:jampot at adelphia.net>>; "Carl Westberg"
> <carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com
> <mailto:carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com>>;
> <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Follow up - Islam the
> religion of peace!
>
> > Gary, you need both a lesson in history and a lesson
> in manners. Sadly,
> > someone taught you neither. Attack the facts, not
> the individual. If you
> > are running on empty, factually, just stop yourself.....
> > Debi R-S
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net
> <mailto:jampot at adelphia.net>>
> > To: "Carl Westberg" <carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com
> <mailto:carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com>>;
> <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Follow up - Islam the
> religion of peace!
> >
> >
> >> Carl, where would you feel more comfortable,
> cataloging and shelving
> >> religious texts, at that nasty, intolerant bastion
> of ill will and
> >> bigotry,
> >> Anselm House or the religious studies section of
> the library of Sand
> >> patch,
> >> Northern Nigeria? (Kano) I'll bet big money I know
> the answer. I'll also
> >> bet
> >> mega naira that should you find yourself working in
> the 297 section of Get
> >> Me The Hell Out Of Here Library (popular nickname
> used by English speaking
> >> non-Muslim employees) you'll be inordinately
> mindful about sudden bouts of
> >> clumsiness. I'm also betting that exclamations of
> agnosticism probably
> >> won't
> >> be met with a hey, no biggie response. Care to take
> me up on any of these
> >> friendly wagers? Want to brush up on your book
> juggling skills first?
> >>
> >> g
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Carl Westberg" <carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com
> <mailto:carlwestberg846 at hotmail.com>>
> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 5:13 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Follow up - Islam the
> religion of peace!
> >>
> >>
> >>> The repeated attempts by certain Christian folk to
> convince me that by
> >>> the
> >>> mere fact of being Muslim, one is evil, makes me
> all the more convinced
> >>> that
> >>> to remain an agnostic who has Muslims and
> Christians in his circle of
> >>> friends is the right choice. Carl Westberg Jr.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>From: heirdoug at netscape.net
> <mailto:heirdoug at netscape.net>
> >>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>>>Subject: [Vision2020] Follow up - Islam the
> religion of peace!
> >>>>Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 16:46:20 -0400
> >>>>
> >>>>..."the students began shouting â?oAllahu Akbarâ?
> ... they vowed she
> >>>>must
> >>>>pay with her life."
> >>>>
> >>>>"The students, incited to violence by the militant
> call to jihad,
> >>>>banded together. Armed with knives and machetes,
> they started chasing
> >>>>Oluwatoyin, who was said to have sought refuge in
> the school
> >>>>principal's office. Breaking down the barriers,
> they made their way
> >>>>into the office and dragged Oluwatoyin outside. To
> make this a public
> >>>>and demoralising spectacle, they stripped her
> naked and began using the
> >>>>knives and machetes on her body. Despite her
> pleas, the murderous
> >>>>students eventually slaughtered her and threw her
> into the boot of her
> >>>>own burning car."
> >>>>
> >>>>"Still not satisfied with enough jihad justice,
> they turned on the
> >>>>principal Alhaji Mohammed Saidu, who tried to
> protect Oluwatoyin, and
> >>>>beat him mercilessly. In their final rampage, they
> proceeded to burn
> >>>>down the school clinic, the administrative block
> and the library."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Olwatoyin was 31 years old, married and had two
> little children.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Sounds like a religion of peace to me. How about
> it Nick? Sound like a
> >>>>religion of peace to you?
> >>>>
> >>>>________________________________________________________________________
> >>>>Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of
> storage and
> >>>>industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
> >>>>=0
> >>>>
> >>>>=======================================================
> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>>=======================================================
> >>>
> >>>
> _________________________________________________________________
> >>> Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event
> this summer - only on MSN
> >>> http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> =======================================================
> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >>> http://www.fsr.net
> >>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>>
> =======================================================
> >>
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> =======================================================
> >>
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 -
> Release Date: 6/1/2007 11:22 AM
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date:
> 6/1/2007 11:22 AM
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
More information about the Vision2020
mailing list