[Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!

Mon Jul 16 10:29:36 PDT 2007

Did I make it a little too complex for you, Gary?

I'll try again, this time attempting to keep it as simple as a two ward lock.

1.    You wrote:  "With all this in mind, what place is it of yours to piss on someone else's parade?"

2.    The only way those whom you addressed pissed on someone's parade was to comment on their activities.

3.    Asking "what place is it of yours to piss on someone else's parade?" is asking "what place is it of yours to comment on their activities?"

4.    Why does some one need a place [right] to comment from you or anyone else?  

5.    Asking this question is in effect saying "you should not make such comments [because it "pisses one someone else's parade" -- spoils their fun].

6.    Those who believe in freedom of expression might vehemently disagree with someone, but would not say "do not make these comments because it spoils someone's fun" since that would be putting a limit on free debate.

7.    On the other hand, someone who wishes to silence someone possibly spoiling third parties' with their comments would dictate "you have no place [right] to make such comments."

Gebachu?

W.

PS: I apologize if some readers got a script error from the previous post.  I hope that I have removed the source of those errors.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: g. crabtree 
To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020 
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!

Please forgive me if this appears more than once. I'm in the middle of changing email accounts.

Just exactly where do you come by the notion that I somehow style myself as a strict and unbending "Great Libertarian?" I don't contribute to Ron Paul and I am not registered as a Libertarian and I very rarely vote Libertarian in any election. I do admire certain principals  of libertarianism and lean that way in some of my thinking but that's about as far as it goes. The idea that I worship at the altar of some unbending political doctrine is a construct made up entirely in your own fevered noggin. Perhaps a little more time in the shade would serve you well.

Again, for the record, I'm fairly sure the only persons on this list deranged and megalomaniacal enough to think that the throw away use of a popular American idiom was meant to "eliminate freedom of expression" are you and your shuddering invisible buddies.

g
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Art Deco 
  To: Vision 2020 
  Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!

  You're almost right Gary, except you appear not able to own up to your own propensities.

  http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/rain+on+parade

  rain on someone's parade:  to do something that spoils someone's plans. 
  "I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but you're not allowed to have alcohol on the premises."

  rain on someone's parade:  to spoil someone's plans or pleasure. "
  I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but you're not allowed to have food or drinks in the theater."

  Your comment to those that took issue with boxing was (again):

  "With all this in mind, what place is it of yours to piss on someone else's parade?"

  How else were they (Keely, Ellen, et al) possibly depriving of or spoiling  the boxer's and spectator's pleasure except by commenting?  Unless I missed something, there were no threats to bomb the arena or anything of that nature.  I did not read any proposal to interfere or to outlaw the activities issue.

  They only made comment.  That is the only way that they could be construed of possibly depriving of or spoiling the boxers' and spectators' pleasure from their posts.  So when you ask "what place is it of yours to piss on someone else's parade?" you are questioning their right ["place"] to make comment -- like they need a right granted by you to express their opinion to avoid mucking with someone's pleasure.

  How totally unlibertarian, but really totalitarian.  How foolish to think that others cannot see through such a simple ruse you now smokescreen to save face and quickly reposition your mask of intolerance from its unconscious slip.

  Even further from reality, do you think in actual fact that the remarks or Keely, Ellen, et al would really have any effect on those whom they were discussing?  Of depriving them of or spoiling their pleasure?  Get real. 

  Let's face it.  You do wish to restrict the topics others choose to discuss and the views they choose to express.  You're just not man enough to admit it when you are caught.  If you really want to understand the principles of modern libertarianism, perhaps you could go to the origins by trying to read Hobbes, Hume, and Mill.

  W.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: g. crabtree 
  To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020 
  Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 9:42 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!

  Actually Wayne, I'm fairly sure that what I was referring to was the silly notion that boys should be forbidden in some way from engaging in the combative arts not the discussion of its merits. For the record the phrase "piss on my parade (a corruption of rain on my parade) is widely held to mean don't deprive me/them of my/their pleasure. To somehow imagine that it in some way is a call for the elimination of freedom of expression is ludicrous even by the standard you have set in your previous posts. Please feel free to think what you want however and if I cause you and/or your friends to "shudder" all I can say is hooray for little old me. Having what few wits you have left tied up in your eternal quest to ferret out all the ills of the world and attribute them to the Doug's and the Dale's of the area is making your posts more than a little tedious. oh well, carry on if you must.

  g
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Art Deco 
    To: Vision 2020 
    Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:48 AM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!

    Ellen,

    An interesting aspect of Crabtree's post is his not even cleverly disguised hypocrisy.

    There is room to debate whether boxing may have some beneficial results and to debate whether the probabilities of the risks involved justify the probabilities of the possible beneficial consequences of various kinds.  There is room to debate whether some of the harmful consequences are really harmful.

    There is no doubt that Crabtree or anyone else is free to argue for, with validity or not, their views on this subject.  However, Crabtree goes further than just debate the effects of boxing issue.  He admonishes:

    "With all this in mind, what place is it of yours to piss on someone else's parade?"

    Here we have the Great Libertarian Crabtree telling others they should not express their opinions ["piss"] on this issue.

    What a transparent phony!  Whatever happened to the most fundamental of libertarian doctrines:  Freedom of Expression?

    So it's alright for Crabtree, Farris, and their mentor Wilson via Courtney to piss all over others [like the rest of us sometimes do], but not alright for others to piss on their cherished pets.  

    I have said this before:  I know and have known many hard-line libertarians.  The number of local libertarians who are in reality dishonest hypocrites really contaminates the worth of some of the important contributions honest, genuine libertarians can make to many issues.  

    There are some very thoughtful libertarians who post here and with whom I sometimes communicate with off list.  I can imagine how they must shudder when the phony libertarian Crabtree makes utterances such as that cited above and how they must hate to have their thoughtful views associated with such pretentious ilk.

    But Crabtree did contribute one piece if useful knowledge:  Some have wondered if Cultmaster Jr. Nathan Wilson had possibly suffered one or more serious head injuries.  Maybe the boxing incident is evidence to further fuel this speculation.

    Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
    deco at moscow.com

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Ellen Roskovich 
    To: jampot at adelphia.net ; thansen at moscow.com ; privatejf32 at hotmail.com ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
    Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 10:55 PM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!

    Gary. . . . you may call me Ellen.  Or, if you wish to be formal, it's Mrs. Roskovich.

    Boxing IS dangerous. . . and makes about as much sense as a cock fight.  It's not for kids.  As hard as I try, I cannot think of one positive life lesson a young person would learn from the experience.

    Ellen A. Roskovich

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
      To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>,"'Ellen Roskovich'" <gussie443 at hotmail.com>,<privatejf32 at hotmail.com>,<vision2020 at moscow.com>
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!
      Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:40:27 -0700

      According to Ms. Roscovich and Ms. Mix it's all about the "danger" and the "physical aggression." In what way do the pieces of paper that you refer to make the event different, more feminine?  Does the notion of men getting together to have a bit of fun with other men leave you feeling uncomfortable? Or is it really more about the who then anything having to do with the what?

      It is my understanding that the event happened under the tutelage of a retired professional boxer, that ABA approved headgear was worn by all participants, that absolutely no one was seriously injured (one punch was expertly blocked by the nose of one of the warriors but he lived to tell the tale and more importantly learned a valuable lesson in keeping his gloves up  and his chin down.) and that a good time was had by all. With all this in mind, what place is it of yours to piss on someone else's parade?

      g

        ---- Original Message ----- 
        From: Tom Hansen 
        To: 'g. crabtree' ; 'Ellen Roskovich' ; privatejf32 at hotmail.com ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
        Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 6:11 PM
        Subject: RE: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!

        g stated:

        "The combative sports (boxing, judo, karate, wrestling, etc.) result in far fewer injury's than football, rock climbing, skate boarding, mountain biking and skiing at the amateur level. Even cheer leading results in more emergency room visits! Would you have every "sport" that is potentially dangerous be eliminated from the extracurricular activities list?"

        This may very well be true, g, among professionals and/or in a venue specifically designed for that sport with the requisite safety measures established and maintained, not at a school lacking the appropriate facilities and void of the aforementioned safety measures.

        In each of the "organized" activities you mention (boxing, judo, karate, wrestling, football, rock climbing, skate boarding, mountain biking, skiing, etc.), there are certain requirements (health, insurance, waivers, etc. etc.) that MUST be accomplished prior to any competitor engaging in their sport.  Based on a Viz discussion, concerning  the Logos School "smokers" (as they are called) a while back, it was painfully evident that NONE of these requirements was even considered, much less accomplished.

          Seeya round town, Moscow.

          Tom Hansen
          Moscow, Idaho

          "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

          - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007) 

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    Gary. . . . you may call me Ellen.  Or, if you wish to be formal, it's Mrs. Roskovich.

    Boxing IS dangerous. . . and makes about as much sense as a cock fight.  It's not for kids.  As hard as I try, I cannot think of one positive life lesson a young person would learn from the experience.

    Ellen A. Roskovich

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
      To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>,"'Ellen Roskovich'" <gussie443 at hotmail.com>,<privatejf32 at hotmail.com>,<vision2020 at moscow.com>
      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!
      Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:40:27 -0700

      According to Ms. Roscovich and Ms. Mix it's all about the "danger" and the "physical aggression." In what way do the pieces of paper that you refer to make the event different, more feminine?  Does the notion of men getting together to have a bit of fun with other men leave you feeling uncomfortable? Or is it really more about the who then anything having to do with the what?

      It is my understanding that the event happened under the tutelage of a retired professional boxer, that ABA approved headgear was worn by all participants, that absolutely no one was seriously injured (one punch was expertly blocked by the nose of one of the warriors but he lived to tell the tale and more importantly learned a valuable lesson in keeping his gloves up  and his chin down.) and that a good time was had by all. With all this in mind, what place is it of yours to piss on someone else's parade?

      g

        ---- Original Message ----- 
        From: Tom Hansen 
        To: 'g. crabtree' ; 'Ellen Roskovich' ; privatejf32 at hotmail.com ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
        Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 6:11 PM
        Subject: RE: [Vision2020] AND THE BEAT GOES ON!

        g stated:

        "The combative sports (boxing, judo, karate, wrestling, etc.) result in far fewer injury's than football, rock climbing, skate boarding, mountain biking and skiing at the amateur level. Even cheer leading results in more emergency room visits! Would you have every "sport" that is potentially dangerous be eliminated from the extracurricular activities list?"

        This may very well be true, g, among professionals and/or in a venue specifically designed for that sport with the requisite safety measures established and maintained, not at a school lacking the appropriate facilities and void of the aforementioned safety measures.

        In each of the "organized" activities you mention (boxing, judo, karate, wrestling, football, rock climbing, skate boarding, mountain biking, skiing, etc.), there are certain requirements (health, insurance, waivers, etc. etc.) that MUST be accomplished prior to any competitor engaging in their sport.  Based on a Viz discussion, concerning  the Logos School "smokers" (as they are called) a while back, it was painfully evident that NONE of these requirements was even considered, much less accomplished.

          Seeya round town, Moscow.

          Tom Hansen
          Moscow, Idaho

          "We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

          - Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    =======================================================
     List services made available by First Step Internet, 
     serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
                   http://www.fsr.net                       
              mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
    =======================================================

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  =======================================================
   List services made available by First Step Internet, 
   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.   
                 http://www.fsr.net                       
            mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  =======================================================
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