[Vision2020] George W Told the Nation

Sun Jul 15 19:31:00 PDT 2007

Andreas,

  It seems rather pointless trying to convince you that Iraq will be better off with our troops there and in dire shape if they are not. Your biggest problem is that you are thinking I am factoring in Al Quieda, I am not even considering them. They are not a player in this. Al Quieda will cease as soon as the US leaves Iraq. They are only there to take pot shots at US soldiers in the area. 

  For each incident you try to point to out, you forget that all of the factors you list, from Sunni's existence, Kurd's, the leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan, are only there because the United States is involved and occupying the area. Once the US leaves all those factors change. 

  If we leave;

  Sunnies and Shiites will go to full scale war, Iran will occupy and assist the Shiites, this is already happening, and will only go full scale war if we are absent. Sunnies will be slaughtered if the US leaves. Yes, some Sunnies do attack the US occupants, but that is only because the US backs a constitution and government that favors Shiites and leaves them in a politically and economically disadvantaged position. But, when the US leaves, there will be nothing from stopping the Shiites from taking the gloves off and allowing Iran to enter the country to assist with winning the civil war. 

  Kurds will either be killed by either Turks if they are given their own sovereign nation, or by the Shiites if they remain a part of Iraq. Only the US occupation is keeping them alive and free. If you keep a small militant force, that force will be overrun and killed by forces in the middle east that dislike the US occupation. Leave a large force then you are where we are now. 

  The leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan will fall because they are only alive and in place because of US support. The leader of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, has little if any power outside the capital city, the Taliban if you have been keeping current on events, are in control of most of the country. In fact, Karzi would be dead if it were not for US security, troops, and cash.  The leader of Pakistan is barely in power, about to be ousted by his own people in the coming months, year, and he has the full support of the US. 

  Running away from the problems we caused is something we may will likely do, and a strategy I understand you can agree with. But it doesn't make the problems go away. And Iran will have nuclear weapons and a strong hold on the region before the end of the next presidential term, or before 2012, before we could even get our troops all out. And yes, Iran does have influence around the world, everything runs on oil. You would not be able to read this email without oil. 

  3/4 of the people were dumb to support going in there and why we went in there in the first place. Now, 3/4 of the people want to make the decision to leave. They were wrong before, and they are wrong again. In five years, when Iran has nuclear bombs and are killing innocent people, 3/4 of the people will say we should not have left and go back in, once again, making decisions not based on reason, but on the emotional state and mood of the nation at the time. I think this is BAD thinking, and more people are going to die needlessly if we leave Iraq anytime soon.  

  Best,

  Donovan

Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com> wrote:
  On 7/15/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> Andreas,
>
> Sorry, but you are the one that lives in a fantasy world if you think that
> withdrawing US troops and handing the country to Iran, a nuclear superpower,
> is in our best interests.

Iran is neither nuclear nor a superpower. They are five years away
from having a nuclear weapon, assuming they stay on their current
course, and they are at best a regional power; they exercise no
authority outside the Middle East. Though they have influence in
Iraq's Shi'a leaders, no Iraqi government officials are puppets of
Iran in the same sense that Lebanon was a puppet state of Syria.
Further, ethnic differences between Iraq and Iran prevent easy
unification of interests -- Shi'a Iraqis are Arabic-speaking Arabs,
and Shi'a Iranians are Farsi-speaking Persians.

I'd also like to note that the nightmare scenario in your previous
post is ... uh, I'm trying to be polite, but it's crazy. What you're
suggesting is that:

(1) Hamid Karzai is controlled by al-Qaida.

(2) Sunni al-Qaida -- the group supporting attacks on Shi'a in Iraq,
and which considers Shi'a the worst kind of heretics -- would join
with Shi'as in Iraq and Iran to form a super-powered alliance.

(3) al-Qaida, a crazed but moronic death cult whose only purpose is to
attack America, and which has been, for six years, been entirely
unable to execute an attack on American soil, would beat out every
last local interest and power group for rulership of 3/4 of the
Islamic world.

(4) This giant al-Qaida controlled juggernaut would then overthrow the
popular Hashemite Jordanian monarchy and the multi-ethnic Pakistan to
form a great big, I guess, al-Qaidastan.

(4) This would throw us into WWIII, but we would continue to purchase their oil.

This is so incoherent that I almost can't believe I read it correctly. Um. What?

> I don't support Bush. But sending the troops back home doesn't eliminate the
> problem the and reality that millions will die if we do.
>
> Tell me Andreas, when US troops leave, and millions of innocent Kurds and
> Sunni families are slaughtered, are you going to demand the US go back over
> there and stop the slaughter? Are your going to feel good about the
> thousands of US troops that die retaking land we already shed blood for to
> stop the slaughter?

First, Kurdistan will likely remain autonomous, unless Turkey invades
it. There is likely to be fighting in Mosul and Kirkuk for some time
to come, due to Saddam's policy of resettling Arabs in traditionally
Kurdish area, but that will likely die down. One of the few useful
things we can do is leave a small force in place in Kurdistan -- not
as a fighting force, but as a political impediment to a local war
(like, for instance, our garrison in Souh Korea.)

Second, the Sunnis want us to leave more than anyone. Sunnis are
responsible for the vast majority of the attacks against US troops.
Additionally, "al-Qaida in Iraq," our ostensible target in Iraq, is
itself Sunni.

Third, we are already facilitating the ethnic cleansing of Iraqi
Sunnis. The Iraqi security forces to which we are attempting to turn
over control are heavily infiltrated by Shi'a death squads. Our
presence is, unfortunately, doing nothing to avert the nightmare
situation you describe.

-- ACS

> The sad thing is, we most likely will retreat from Iraq, and we can watch it
> unfold on the daily news.
>
> Best,
>
> Donovan
>
> Andreas Schou wrote:
> Donovan --
>
> We don't live in your fantasy world, where a competent leader has
> command of an omnipotent military able to sacrifice what is necessary
> to turn Iraq into a functional state. We happen to live in America,
> where the most incompetent President of a generation leads a severely
> weakened military amidst the ruins of Iraqi civil society. Your
> fantasy situation, where we can do sufficient good to make up for our
> inexcusable mistake, simply isn't going to occur.
>
> The Iraqi people want us out. The American people want us out. The
> Iraqi government says "we can leave at any time."
>
> -- ACS
>
> On 7/15/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > Johnny come marching lately.
> >
> > I think all the people that were originally for this war, placed our
> troops
> > in harms way, then later changed their minds after thousands of troops
> died,
> > and now don't want to not finish the mission, should be sent over there.
> >
> >
> > I think it immoral to kill all those soldiers, start political instability
> > in the middle east, murder millions of foreign civilians, and then say,
> "Oh
> > well, never mind!"
> >
> > Those people that wanted to start and supported the start of this war need
> > to finish it. If our troops withdraw millions of Iraqis, mostly Kurds and
> > Sunnies, are going to die. Iraq will be governed from Iran. Oil will be in
> > the hands of fewer, causing easily $4 to $5 a gallon. Iran will be a
> single
> > superpower in the middle east, great wealth, and nuclear weapons.
> >
> > No, we have to stay now. We should have stayed out and went after UBL. But
> > now we have to suffer like we made others suffer. The backstabbers that
> > supported the war and troops in the beginning but now desert them should
> be
> > the ones to go over there first. Staying is a bad choice for sure, but
> > leaving is even worse. All the idiots that believed Bush and wanted war in
> > the first place should be the idiots to be sacrificed over there.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> >
> > Mark Solomon wrote:
> > Thanks Tom. Tom Paxton has always been one of my favorites. I was
> > absolutley thrilled when he played at WSU oh so many years ago.
> >
> > m.
> >
> > At 9:08 AM -0700 7/15/07, Tom Hansen wrote:
> > >GEORGE W. TOLD THE NATION
> > >By Tom Paxton
> > >
> >
> >http://www.tomandrodna.com/Songs/George_W_Told_The_Nation.mp3
> > >
> > >or
> > >
> > >http://tinyurl.com/3bjso5
> > >
> > >
> > >"I got a letter from old George W.,
> > >It said, "Son, I hate to trouble ya,
> > >But this war of mine is going bad.
> > >It's time for me to roll the dice;
> > >I know you've already been there twice,
> > >But I am sending you back to Baghdad."
> > >
> > >Chorus:
> > >Hey! George W. told the nation,
> > >"This is not an escalation;
> > >This is just a surge toward victory.
> > >Just to win my little war,
> > >I'm sending 20,000 more,
> > >To help me save Iraq from Iraqis.
> > >
> > >And, so, I made it to Iraq
> > >In time for one more sneak attack,
> > >And to my old battalion I was sent.
> > >We drive around in our Humvees,
> > >Listening to The Black-Eyed Peas
> > >And speaking fondly of the president. (To Chorus)
> > >
> > >Celebrities all come to see us,
> > >Grateful they don't have to be us,
> > >Politicians show their best face card.
> > >Where is Bubba? Where's our leader?
> > >Where's our favorite lip reader?
> > >AWOL from the Texas National Guard
> > >
> > >If you're hunkered in Fallujah
> > >Wondering who it was who screwed ya,
> > >Wondering what became of "Shock and Awe!"
> > >
> > >You are feeling semi-certain
> > >It has to do with Halliburton,
> > >Dick Cheney's why you drew that fatal straw."
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------
> > >
> > >Seeya round town, Moscow.
> > >
> > >Tom Hansen
> > >Moscow, Idaho
> > >
> > >"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the
> > tranquil
> > >and steady dedication of a lifetime."
> > >
> > >--Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
> >
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