[Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support
Tony
tonytime at clearwire.net
Sat Jan 6 16:12:51 PST 2007
J, I understand your concern and have been less combative overall. Staying
on such a course is difficult when my courage is questioned by those
unwilling to test their hypothesis.
What does IMHO mean again?
Seeya', -T
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support
> Ok, Deb...I do agree with you on these points, but in my post I was truly
> hoping to encourage his being decent for more than one post. I guess I
> like
> windmills - or mayhap, what I like is chasing them.
>
> Anyway, Tony, you really can be decent when you want to be. I just wish
> you'd want to be more often (is that a redundant phrase?). IF you are
> serious about interacting and employing or developing a good, resourceful,
> productive discussion that helps people and helps them understand your
> points, I implore you to leave off with the insults and, like Friday would
> say, "just the facts, please." If the facts you include are your
> opinions,
> feel free - just leave off the deliberately trying to bait people into
> fist-a-cuffs.
>
> IMHO, only.
>
>
> J :]
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: debismith at moscow.com
>>To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support
>>Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 11:37:48 -0800
>>
>>You called it, Sunil and Keely. Tony can't help himself. He simply must
>>employ a nasty insult,
>>as in his world it passes for being clever. He manages to hold it together
>>for one post, then
>>loses his temper again and begins to rant and foam at the mouth, or smugly
>>proclaims that all
>>who disagree are less than manly or womanly. As if Little Tony's opinion
>>is
>>valid in that
>>respect, given how ridiculous are most of his other opinions! Tony is a
>>thug, a laughable nutjob,
>>or a troll. He is not, however, worth serious consideration.
>>
>>Debi R-S
>>
>>
>>From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>>To: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>>Date sent: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 23:48:38 -0800
>>Copies to: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support
>>
>>[ Double-click this line for list subscription options ]
>>
>>Keely's attempt to refute my logic relies on a mischaracterization of
>>my argument.
>>
>>Whether anyone has any reservations about the justifiability of
>>civilian law enforcement verses military endeavors, is irrelevant.
>>The question was whether BOTH occupations contain a significant degree
>>of risk, and therefore whether they pose a similar threat to a
>>participant's well being, and further, whether or not those in these
>>high risk pursuits are justified in accusing their supporters without
>>similar experience of being "chicken" for choosing a different path
>>during peace time.
>>
>>Of course we are all now familiar with the ever smug Keeely's penchant
>>for reframing another's argument in an inaccurate way and then
>>ridiculing them for words she put erroneously into their mouths.
>>
>>Keeeely, rest assured that the desire to never meet personally appeals
>>immensely to me also. I prefer the company of real woman, not craven,
>>gnarled, fishwives with chalices of hemlock, looking for someone to
>>poison.
>>
>>With love, -T
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>>To: <tonytime at clearwire.net>; <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 8:13 PM
>>Subject: Tony's logic and soldier support
>>
>>
>> > Tony's attempt at logic, below, is deeply flawed.
>> >
>> > He compares civilian support for law enforcement and the
>> > condemnation cops could theoretically heap on folks for being too
>> > "cowardly" to serve on the police force with vets' dismissal of
>> > non-veterans who crow loudly about the righteousness of wars they
>> > don't serve in. It's a false comparison, though. Very few people
>> > have any reservations about the establishment and duties of police,
>> > firefighters, and other law enforcement/protection personnel. It's
>> > a given that in any community, some will be cops, some will be
>> > bakers, some will write for newspapers, a few will work in
>> > factories, and others will care for kids full time. The presence of
>> > law enforcement is commonly seen as a universal good, but that good
>> > would be a promised unfulfilled if everyone decided to show their
>> > support of it by joining the force.
>> >
>> > A war, on the other hand, is not seen by all as a universal good,
>> > particularly the US war in Iraq. Further, it is indisputably more
>> > harmful to psyche and to body to serve on the front lines; it is
>> > infinitely safer to advocate for war with full vigor while not
>> > serving in capacities that not only invite great and ever-present
>> > danger, but also require a surplus of willing participants. Police
>> > forces generally require set numbers of armed personnel. War seems
>> > to require steady numbers of willing soldiers to enable further
>> > conquest and replenish the numbers of those lost in combat, and
>> > Chuck Kovis' point that it's easy to rally for war by "supporting
>> > the troops" while avoiding combat is an important one.
>> >
>> > I don't know Chuck Kovis, but hope someday to meet him. I don't
>> > know Tony, either, and if the pleasure were indefinitely postponed,
>> > I'd be OK with that. Nonetheless, arguing that Chuck's point is
>> > formed from bitterness and cynicism and not from a skepticism
>> > well-earned does absolutely no justice to whatever point he wishes
>> > to make.
>> >
>> > keely
>> >
>> >
>> > From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>> > To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>> > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
>> > Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 17:04:25 -0800
>> >
>> > J, I find Chuck's impertinent ad hominum tactics as unpleasant as
>> > having to respond to them. Unfortunately, there is a strain of
>> > malingering vets who attempt to dismiss any support of our troops by
>> > non vets as "chickenhawk" phoniness. The ignorance of such a
>> > position is obvious. It would be on a par with a law enforcement
>> > officer or firefighter condemning a civilian who had voiced support
>> > for them, saying, how can you dare take such a position having never
>> > served as a police officer or firefighter yourself? (bear in mind
>> > that such careers carry at least as great a statistical risk of
>> > injury or death as one in the military.) Clearly it does not
>> > automatically follow that public support of those in such careers
>> > constitutes cowardice. Such a charge is of course emotionally
>> > satisfying to those who are intellectually unable to respond to such
>> > support as publicly articulated.
>> >
>> > Later, -T
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 10:15 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
>> >
>> >
>> > > Jeez, guys - quit with the kicking up of the sand...you're getting
>> > > it in everyone's eyes, not just yours.
>> > >
>> > > Sheesh; if ANYthing were in need of being taken somewhere else -
>> > > this be it!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > J :]
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>> > >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
>> > >>Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:13:24 -0800
>> > >>
>> > >>What a bold scary Tiger you are! But so predictable.
>> > >>
>> > >>Sunil
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> >From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>> > >> >To: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
>> > >> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
>> > >> >Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 08:16:51 -0800
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Oh Chuck, you are in another snit, aren't you? I am under no
>> > obligation
>> > >>to
>> > >> >prove a damn thing to you, you pompous prick. We established
>> > >> >your
>> > >>penchant
>> > >> >for challenging the courage of others last fall, did we not?
>> > >> >You revel
>> > >>in
>> > >> >challenging them and then shrink back from confrontation when
>> > >> >your
>> > bluff
>> > >>is
>> > >> >called. I am quite prepared to respond unpredictably and
>> > >> >decisively to
>> > >>an
>> > >> >assault by you or any other tyrant. If you are such a brave
>> > >> >tough guy Chucko, why don't you test your theory about my lack
>> > >> >of guts and look
>> > me
>> > >>up
>> > >> >and get in my face sometime? Afraid you might face at least as
>> > >> >great a risk of maiming as that faced by the average military
>> > >> >enlistee? Yep, just
>> > as
>> > >>I
>> > >> >thought, it is you who are the chickenshit.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Now go kiss my ass. -TONY----- Original Message -----
>> > >> >From: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
>> > >> >To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>> > >> >Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > >> >Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:30 AM
>> > >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > Tony, I'm not ticked that I served my country. I'd do it it a
>> > >>heartbeat.
>> > >> > > I'm ticked that people like you and Pat don't. I can't for
>> > >> > > the life
>> > >>of
>> > >> >me
>> > >> > > figure out why people like you and Pat who want to "bomb them
>> > >> > > back
>> > to
>> > >> >the
>> > >> > > stone age" don't volunteer and fight the wars that you think
>> > everyone
>> > >> >else
>> > >> > > should. Give me a good reason to believe that you are not a
>> > >> > > great big chickenshit. Chuck Kovis
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
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