[Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support

J Ford privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Sat Jan 6 11:52:42 PST 2007


Ok, Deb...I do agree with you on these points, but in my post I was truly 
hoping to encourage his being decent for more than one post.  I guess I like 
windmills - or mayhap, what I like is chasing them.

Anyway, Tony, you really can be decent when you want to be.  I just wish 
you'd want to be more often (is that a redundant phrase?).  IF you are 
serious about interacting and employing or developing a good, resourceful, 
productive discussion that helps people and helps them understand your 
points, I implore you to leave off with the insults and, like Friday would 
say, "just the facts, please."  If the facts you include are your opinions, 
feel free - just leave off the deliberately trying to bait people into 
fist-a-cuffs.

IMHO, only.


J  :]





>From: debismith at moscow.com
>To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support
>Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 11:37:48 -0800
>
>You called it, Sunil and Keely. Tony can't help himself. He simply must 
>employ a nasty insult,
>as in his world it passes for being clever. He manages to hold it together 
>for one post, then
>loses his temper again and begins to rant and foam at the mouth, or smugly 
>proclaims that all
>who disagree are less than manly or womanly. As if Little Tony's opinion is 
>valid in that
>respect, given how ridiculous are most of his other opinions! Tony is a 
>thug, a laughable nutjob,
>or a troll. He is not, however, worth serious consideration.
>
>Debi R-S
>
>
>From:           	"Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>To:             	"keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>Date sent:      	Fri, 5 Jan 2007 23:48:38 -0800
>Copies to:      	vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject:        	Re: [Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support
>
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>
>Keely's attempt to refute my logic relies on a mischaracterization of
>my argument.
>
>Whether anyone has any reservations about the justifiability of
>civilian law enforcement verses military endeavors, is irrelevant.
>The question was whether BOTH occupations contain a significant degree
>of risk, and therefore whether they pose a similar threat to a
>participant's well being, and further, whether or not those in these
>high risk pursuits are justified in accusing their supporters without
>similar experience of being "chicken" for choosing a different path
>during peace time.
>
>Of course we are all now familiar with the ever smug Keeely's penchant
>for reframing another's argument in an inaccurate way and then
>ridiculing them for words she put erroneously into their mouths.
>
>Keeeely, rest assured that the desire to never meet personally appeals
>immensely to me also.  I prefer the company of real woman, not craven,
>gnarled, fishwives with chalices of hemlock, looking for someone to
>poison.
>
>With love,   -T
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>To: <tonytime at clearwire.net>; <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 8:13 PM
>Subject: Tony's logic and soldier support
>
>
> > Tony's attempt at logic, below, is deeply flawed.
> >
> > He compares civilian support for law enforcement and the
> > condemnation cops could theoretically heap on folks for being too
> > "cowardly" to serve on the police force with vets' dismissal of
> > non-veterans who crow loudly about the righteousness of wars they
> > don't serve in.  It's a false comparison, though. Very few people
> > have any reservations about the establishment and duties  of police,
> > firefighters, and other law enforcement/protection personnel.  It's
> > a given that in any community, some will be cops, some will be
> > bakers, some will write for newspapers, a few will work in
> > factories, and others will care for kids full time.  The presence of
> > law enforcement is commonly seen as a universal good, but that good
> > would be a promised unfulfilled if everyone decided to show their
> > support of it by joining the force.
> >
> > A war, on the other hand, is not seen by all as a universal good,
> > particularly the US war in Iraq.  Further, it is indisputably more
> > harmful to psyche and to body to serve on the front lines; it is
> > infinitely safer to advocate for war with full vigor while not
> > serving in capacities that not only invite great and ever-present
> > danger, but also require a surplus of willing participants.  Police
> > forces generally require set numbers of armed personnel.  War seems
> > to require steady numbers of willing soldiers to enable further
> > conquest and replenish the numbers of those lost in combat, and
> > Chuck Kovis' point that it's easy to rally for war by "supporting
> > the troops" while avoiding combat is an important one.
> >
> > I don't know Chuck Kovis, but hope someday to meet him.  I don't
> > know Tony, either, and if the pleasure were indefinitely postponed,
> > I'd be OK with that.  Nonetheless, arguing that Chuck's point is
> > formed from bitterness and cynicism and not from a skepticism
> > well-earned does absolutely no justice to whatever point he wishes
> > to make.
> >
> > keely
> >
> >
> > From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> > To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
> > Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 17:04:25 -0800
> >
> > J, I find Chuck's impertinent ad hominum tactics as unpleasant as
> > having to respond to them.  Unfortunately, there is a strain of
> > malingering vets who attempt to dismiss any support of our troops by
> > non vets as "chickenhawk" phoniness.  The ignorance of such a
> > position is obvious.  It would be on a par with a law enforcement
> > officer or firefighter condemning a civilian who had voiced support
> > for them, saying, how can you dare take such a position having never
> > served as a police officer or firefighter yourself?  (bear in mind
> > that such careers carry at least as great a statistical risk of
> > injury or death as one in the military.)  Clearly it does not
> > automatically follow that public support of those in such careers
> > constitutes cowardice.  Such a charge is of course emotionally
> > satisfying to those who are intellectually unable to respond to such
> > support as publicly articulated.
> >
> > Later,   -T
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> > To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 10:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
> >
> >
> > > Jeez, guys - quit with the kicking up of the sand...you're getting
> > > it in everyone's eyes, not just yours.
> > >
> > > Sheesh; if ANYthing were in need of being taken somewhere else -
> > > this be it!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > J  :]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
> > >>Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:13:24 -0800
> > >>
> > >>What a bold scary Tiger you are!  But so predictable.
> > >>
> > >>Sunil
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> > >> >To: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
> > >> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw:  And so it begins!!
> > >> >Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 08:16:51 -0800
> > >> >
> > >> >Oh Chuck, you are in another snit, aren't you?  I am under no
> > obligation
> > >>to
> > >> >prove a damn thing to you, you pompous prick.  We established
> > >> >your
> > >>penchant
> > >> >for challenging the courage of others last fall, did we not?
> > >> >You revel
> > >>in
> > >> >challenging them and then shrink back from confrontation when
> > >> >your
> > bluff
> > >>is
> > >> >called.  I am quite prepared to respond unpredictably and
> > >> >decisively to
> > >>an
> > >> >assault by you or any other tyrant.  If you are such a brave
> > >> >tough guy Chucko, why don't you test your theory about my lack
> > >> >of guts and look
> > me
> > >>up
> > >> >and get in my face sometime?  Afraid you might face at least as
> > >> >great a risk of maiming as that faced by the average military
> > >> >enlistee?  Yep, just
> > as
> > >>I
> > >> >thought, it is you who are the chickenshit.
> > >> >
> > >> >Now go kiss my ass.    -TONY----- Original Message -----
> > >> >From: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
> > >> >To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> > >> >Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >> >Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:30 AM
> > >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > Tony, I'm not ticked that I served my country. I'd do it it a
> > >>heartbeat.
> > >> > > I'm ticked that people like you and Pat don't.  I can't for
> > >> > > the life
> > >>of
> > >> >me
> > >> > > figure out why people like you and Pat who want to "bomb them
> > >> > > back
> > to
> > >> >the
> > >> > > stone age" don't volunteer and fight the wars that you think
> > everyone
> > >> >else
> > >> > > should.  Give me a good reason to believe that you are not a
> > >> > > great big chickenshit.  Chuck Kovis
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
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