[Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support
Tony
tonytime at clearwire.net
Fri Jan 5 23:48:38 PST 2007
Keely's attempt to refute my logic relies on a mischaracterization of my
argument.
Whether anyone has any reservations about the justifiability of civilian law
enforcement verses military endeavors, is irrelevant. The question was
whether BOTH occupations contain a significant degree of risk, and therefore
whether they pose a similar threat to a participant's well being, and
further, whether or not those in these high risk pursuits are justified in
accusing their supporters without similar experience of being "chicken" for
choosing a different path during peace time.
Of course we are all now familiar with the ever smug Keeely's penchant for
reframing another's argument in an inaccurate way and then ridiculing them
for words she put erroneously into their mouths.
Keeeely, rest assured that the desire to never meet personally appeals
immensely to me also. I prefer the company of real woman, not craven,
gnarled, fishwives with chalices of hemlock, looking for someone to poison.
With love, -T
----- Original Message -----
From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
To: <tonytime at clearwire.net>; <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Tony's logic and soldier support
> Tony's attempt at logic, below, is deeply flawed.
>
> He compares civilian support for law enforcement and the condemnation cops
> could theoretically heap on folks for being too "cowardly" to serve on the
> police force with vets' dismissal of non-veterans who crow loudly about
> the righteousness of wars they don't serve in. It's a false comparison,
> though. Very few people have any reservations about the establishment and
> duties of police, firefighters, and other law enforcement/protection
> personnel. It's a given that in any community, some will be cops, some
> will be bakers, some will write for newspapers, a few will work in
> factories, and others will care for kids full time. The presence of law
> enforcement is commonly seen as a universal good, but that good would be a
> promised unfulfilled if everyone decided to show their support of it by
> joining the force.
>
> A war, on the other hand, is not seen by all as a universal good,
> particularly the US war in Iraq. Further, it is indisputably more harmful
> to psyche and to body to serve on the front lines; it is infinitely safer
> to advocate for war with full vigor while not serving in capacities that
> not only invite great and ever-present danger, but also require a surplus
> of willing participants. Police forces generally require set numbers of
> armed personnel. War seems to require steady numbers of willing soldiers
> to enable further conquest and replenish the numbers of those lost in
> combat, and Chuck Kovis' point that it's easy to rally for war by
> "supporting the troops" while avoiding combat is an important one.
>
> I don't know Chuck Kovis, but hope someday to meet him. I don't know
> Tony, either, and if the pleasure were indefinitely postponed, I'd be OK
> with that. Nonetheless, arguing that Chuck's point is formed from
> bitterness and cynicism and not from a skepticism well-earned does
> absolutely no justice to whatever point he wishes to make.
>
> keely
>
>
> From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 17:04:25 -0800
>
> J, I find Chuck's impertinent ad hominum tactics as unpleasant as having
> to
> respond to them. Unfortunately, there is a strain of malingering vets who
> attempt to dismiss any support of our troops by non vets as "chickenhawk"
> phoniness. The ignorance of such a position is obvious. It would be on a
> par with a law enforcement officer or firefighter condemning a civilian
> who
> had voiced support for them, saying, how can you dare take such a position
> having never served as a police officer or firefighter yourself? (bear in
> mind that such careers carry at least as great a statistical risk of
> injury
> or death as one in the military.) Clearly it does not automatically
> follow
> that public support of those in such careers constitutes cowardice. Such
> a
> charge is of course emotionally satisfying to those who are intellectually
> unable to respond to such support as publicly articulated.
>
> Later, -T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 10:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
>
>
> > Jeez, guys - quit with the kicking up of the sand...you're getting it in
> > everyone's eyes, not just yours.
> >
> > Sheesh; if ANYthing were in need of being taken somewhere else - this be
> > it!
> >
> >
> >
> > J :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
> >>Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:13:24 -0800
> >>
> >>What a bold scary Tiger you are! But so predictable.
> >>
> >>Sunil
> >>
> >>
> >> >From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> >> >To: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
> >> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
> >> >Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 08:16:51 -0800
> >> >
> >> >Oh Chuck, you are in another snit, aren't you? I am under no
> obligation
> >>to
> >> >prove a damn thing to you, you pompous prick. We established your
> >>penchant
> >> >for challenging the courage of others last fall, did we not? You
> >> >revel
> >>in
> >> >challenging them and then shrink back from confrontation when your
> bluff
> >>is
> >> >called. I am quite prepared to respond unpredictably and decisively
> >> >to
> >>an
> >> >assault by you or any other tyrant. If you are such a brave tough guy
> >> >Chucko, why don't you test your theory about my lack of guts and look
> me
> >>up
> >> >and get in my face sometime? Afraid you might face at least as great
> >> >a
> >> >risk
> >> >of maiming as that faced by the average military enlistee? Yep, just
> as
> >>I
> >> >thought, it is you who are the chickenshit.
> >> >
> >> >Now go kiss my ass. -TONY----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
> >> >To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
> >> >Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:30 AM
> >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Tony, I'm not ticked that I served my country. I'd do it it a
> >>heartbeat.
> >> > > I'm ticked that people like you and Pat don't. I can't for the
> >> > > life
> >>of
> >> >me
> >> > > figure out why people like you and Pat who want to "bomb them back
> to
> >> >the
> >> > > stone age" don't volunteer and fight the wars that you think
> everyone
> >> >else
> >> > > should. Give me a good reason to believe that you are not a great
> >> > > big
> >> > > chickenshit. Chuck Kovis
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >=======================================================
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