[Vision2020] Tony's logic and soldier support

Fri Jan 5 20:13:19 PST 2007

Tony's attempt at logic, below, is deeply flawed.

He compares civilian support for law enforcement and the condemnation cops 
could theoretically heap on folks for being too "cowardly" to serve on the 
police force with vets' dismissal of non-veterans who crow loudly about the 
righteousness of wars they don't serve in.  It's a false comparison, though. 
  Very few people have any reservations about the establishment and duties  
of police, firefighters, and other law enforcement/protection personnel.  
It's a given that in any community, some will be cops, some will be bakers, 
some will write for newspapers, a few will work in factories, and others 
will care for kids full time.  The presence of law enforcement is commonly 
seen as a universal good, but that good would be a promised unfulfilled if 
everyone decided to show their support of it by joining the force.

A war, on the other hand, is not seen by all as a universal good, 
particularly the US war in Iraq.  Further, it is indisputably more harmful 
to psyche and to body to serve on the front lines; it is infinitely safer to 
advocate for war with full vigor while not serving in capacities that not 
only invite great and ever-present danger, but also require a surplus of 
willing participants.  Police forces generally require set numbers of armed 
personnel.  War seems to require steady numbers of willing soldiers to 
enable further conquest and replenish the numbers of those lost in combat, 
and Chuck Kovis' point that it's easy to rally for war by "supporting the 
troops" while avoiding combat is an important one.

I don't know Chuck Kovis, but hope someday to meet him.  I don't know Tony, 
either, and if the pleasure were indefinitely postponed, I'd be OK with 
that.  Nonetheless, arguing that Chuck's point is formed from bitterness and 
cynicism and not from a skepticism well-earned does absolutely no justice to 
whatever point he wishes to make.

keely

From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 17:04:25 -0800

J, I find Chuck's impertinent ad hominum tactics as unpleasant as having to
respond to them.  Unfortunately, there is a strain of malingering vets who
attempt to dismiss any support of our troops by non vets as "chickenhawk"
phoniness.  The ignorance of such a position is obvious.  It would be on a
par with a law enforcement officer or firefighter condemning a civilian who
had voiced support for them, saying, how can you dare take such a position
having never served as a police officer or firefighter yourself?  (bear in
mind that such careers carry at least as great a statistical risk of injury
or death as one in the military.)  Clearly it does not automatically follow
that public support of those in such careers constitutes cowardice.  Such a
charge is of course emotionally satisfying to those who are intellectually
unable to respond to such support as publicly articulated.

Later,   -T
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!

 > Jeez, guys - quit with the kicking up of the sand...you're getting it in
 > everyone's eyes, not just yours.
 >
 > Sheesh; if ANYthing were in need of being taken somewhere else - this be
 > it!
 >
 >
 >
 > J  :]
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >>From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
 >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
 >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
 >>Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:13:24 -0800
 >>
 >>What a bold scary Tiger you are!  But so predictable.
 >>
 >>Sunil
 >>
 >>
 >> >From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
 >> >To: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
 >> >CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
 >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw:  And so it begins!!
 >> >Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 08:16:51 -0800
 >> >
 >> >Oh Chuck, you are in another snit, aren't you?  I am under no 
obligation
 >>to
 >> >prove a damn thing to you, you pompous prick.  We established your
 >>penchant
 >> >for challenging the courage of others last fall, did we not?  You revel
 >>in
 >> >challenging them and then shrink back from confrontation when your 
bluff
 >>is
 >> >called.  I am quite prepared to respond unpredictably and decisively to
 >>an
 >> >assault by you or any other tyrant.  If you are such a brave tough guy
 >> >Chucko, why don't you test your theory about my lack of guts and look 
me
 >>up
 >> >and get in my face sometime?  Afraid you might face at least as great a
 >> >risk
 >> >of maiming as that faced by the average military enlistee?  Yep, just 
as
 >>I
 >> >thought, it is you who are the chickenshit.
 >> >
 >> >Now go kiss my ass.    -TONY----- Original Message -----
 >> >From: "Chuck Kovis" <ckovis at turbonet.com>
 >> >To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
 >> >Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
 >> >Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:30 AM
 >> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: And so it begins!!
 >> >
 >> >
 >> > > Tony, I'm not ticked that I served my country. I'd do it it a
 >>heartbeat.
 >> > > I'm ticked that people like you and Pat don't.  I can't for the life
 >>of
 >> >me
 >> > > figure out why people like you and Pat who want to "bomb them back 
to
 >> >the
 >> > > stone age" don't volunteer and fight the wars that you think 
everyone
 >> >else
 >> > > should.  Give me a good reason to believe that you are not a great
 >> > > big
 >> > > chickenshit.  Chuck Kovis
 >> > >
 >> > >
 >> >
 >> >
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