[Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal

Wed Feb 21 18:51:24 PST 2007

Wayne,

I don't doubt that you and others on the site have certain drive against the 
church and Dougs' wrongdoings. I won't condone those. I won't also tell you 
to shut up about the church, for that is your free will. I also understand 
that the church involved might not suit most standards, myself being one. 
There has been much news that we have all heard about involving this church.

I also don't think they are the anti christ. As well as I don't think you do 
either. I would assume most here understand that you, J, and others don't 
want Doug to die or such, rather get you information out about what you 
disagree with.

I believe that ALL reliogions have their bad apples. I'm catholic and I 
couldn't even begin to defend some of our priests. Just as any reliogion. 
And I'll give it to you, Doug and the CC are very devoted to their beliefs, 
which they are entitled to.

Trying to beat the answers into us non CC hating group is not the answer. 
Trying to get your point across and pushing the rest aside will do little 
for your cause. If you feel it is your obligation to infome us non believers 
of your beliefs, I would think you would do so in a informative way, not a 
blah blah blah manter.

The more and more you push the more vision members leave and the more your 
point loses intrest.

Facts remain: CC has not been prosicuted. They have had many question marks. 
But most of the church are law abiding citizens, as well as they should. 
Until that changes I choose not to carry into this agenda, as well as I hope 
that you would choose to respect those that have numerously attempted to 
take your beleifs/agenda and take them to your site.

Matt

>From: <debismith at moscow.com>
>To: <deco at moscow.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:23:39 GMT
>
>Thank you, Wayne. That is exactly the case!
>Debi R-S
>
>
> > Debbie writes:
> >
> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to its
> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
> >
> > Some people on this forum see some of the actions of Christ Church as a
> > Moscow issues:  zoning, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, racism, sexism,
> > homophobia, theocracy, alleged evading of capital gains taxes,
> > misleading or lying at public hearings, effects of on recruitment both
> > academic and athletic at the UI, organizational dishonesty, and cultism.
> >  Some people on this forum also see it as a county-wide forum, not just
> > the exclusive domain of certain Moscow users.
> >
> > Some older people on this forum, whose opinion apparently really doesn't
> > count, still remember learning about "Eternal vigilance is the price of
> > liberty."  Some old people on the forum see those that ignore this bit
> > of Jeffersonian wisdom as enablers.  For these ignorers/enablers, if the
> > Sitler and Wight sexual predator cases, the ways they were handled, and
> > their nuances and ramifications for the community did not act as a
> > wake-up call, then probably nothing will.
> >
> > Some old people have not only read about, but have observed firsthand
> > the effects of cultism on individuals and communities in other places,
> > hence are more concerned.  Unlike Misters Decker, Becker, et al, some
> > people believe that the some of the outré belief-inspired actions of
> > the cult have damaged and continue to damage the community.  Some are
> > concerned about the very active recruitment to the community of others
> > by Christ Church who share their outré beliefs and would perpetuate
> > the damaging actions by Christ Church which are promulgated by such
> > beliefs.
> >
> > For example, a letter to the Daily News detailing the cruel and harmful
> > effects on their child by Douglas Wilson's direct and indirect actions
> > with respect to gays is a chilling reminder of the effects of
> > homophobia.  [I can repost this letter should some of you be unfamiliar
> > with it.]  Some people find these kinds of discriminatory/hate driven
> > actions disturbing, wish to live in a community where this kind of
> > discrimination is greatly diminished, and therefore wish to promote a
> > community discussion on this and related issues.  The same can said be
> > for the issues raised by the recent reposting of the Logos School's
> > complete original announcement of the banning of women from serving on
> > the school's board of directors.  The same can be said of Wilson's
> > delusional views on antebellum slavery.
> >
> > Wilson has a complete right to express and to argue for his views,
> > however badly they reflect on the community in the outside world.  What
> > would reflect even worse for Moscow, in my opinion, is if such views
> > were not rigorously and openly opposed.
> >
> > Some people do not think it proper to discuss others' religious beliefs.
> >  The fact is that strongly held religious beliefs prompt actions which
> > have community impact, sometimes these impacts are toxic and harmful to
> > the general community health, welfare, and pursuit of happiness.  To
> > these people who think religious discussions are not proper, I urge you
> > to read about the motives of the first European colonists in our
> > country, and whose European experiences gave birth to our Constitution.
> >
> >
> > Debbie further writes:
> >
> > "Your Anti-Christ Church rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise
> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum."
> >
> > Perhaps I am too old to see it otherwise, but Vision 2020 is still a
> > helpful, informative, interesting, lively forum.  There have been many
> > local issues discussed.  I know for a fact that some of the opinions
> > offered here have influenced officials of both city and county
> > government as well as some other organizations.
> >
> > There is no doubt a lot of writing about Christ Church and related
> > issues on V 2020 for reasons given above.  There are also a lot of
> > writings about things that are not purely city issues; some of these
> > issues are national and global in size, but still in the long run the
> > subjects of these issues will affect Moscow.
> >
> >
> > Repeating what Debbie wrote:
> >
> > "I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN anti-christ
> > church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever LISTSERV and leave this one to its
> > origins of discussing Moscow issues."
> >
> > I hope that even critics of those that write about Christ Church will
> > find the phrase "your OWN" offensive.  Is there something that we do not
> > know?  Are there some individuals who "own" Vision 2020, and therefore
> > have the right to tell those of us who are not among the "owners" what
> > the "real" Moscow issues are, and consequently what to write about?
> >
> > As has been mentioned many times before, once an unmoderated public
> > forum has been opened, only the very naive would expect it to be
> > confined topic-wise or rhetoric-wise.  Public discourse bears fruit, in
> > part, because of this wide diversity.  As a member of a number of
> > forums, I find that Vision 2020 is superior in at least two ways:  It
> > has very little problems with spam, and it has encouraged a great
> > diversity of opinions on issues and of styles of communication, some of
> > which have promoted constructive change in the community.
> >
> > With respect to the diversity of topics and rhetoric, some people are
> > not comfortable with this degree of freedom of expression.  For such
> > people, the one or two seconds it takes to use the delete key remains a
> > reasonable option and does not deter the rest of us from reading (or
> > not) what others freely choose to post.  For others that are exasperated
> > by or otherwise unable to handle the fruits of freedom of expression,
> > there are ways of blocking a particular poster.  I have only blocked one
> > person.  It is not that I wish to exclude his opinions, but I am tired
> > of getting his offline poison pen notes.  Blocking him provides an
> > option for now to pursuing criminal complaints and/or civil actions.
> >
> > If it is permitted, I'll tell you what bothers me about certain posts:
> > Some posters do not believe that it necessary to support with
> > information and argument the opinions they express.  Of course they are
> > free to do this, but it does not reflect well on themselves nor the
> > positions they espouse.
> >
> >
> > Wayne A. Fox
> > 1009 Karen Lane
> > PO Box 9421
> > Moscow, ID  83843
> >
> > (208) 882-7975
> > waf at moscow.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Debbie Gray" <graylex at yahoo.com>
> > To: "kerry becker" <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] vision 2020 proposal
> >
> >
> > > Exactly. Christ Church isn't alone it its
> > > interpretations of the bible. I grew up in a
> > > fundamentalist bible-thumping born-again household and
> > > heard this same stuff. I understand that people oppose
> > > these ideas and find them harmful. I don't understand
> > > the hate focused on one group. I don't agree with most
> > > of the things they teach but I don't agree with the
> > > catholics (also anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc etc), the
> > > LDS Church (also wanting to keep women in their
> > > 'traditional role'); the Lutherans, the Methodists and
> > > any other flavor of "christian" belief. Where is the
> > > outcry that women can't be Elders in the LDS Church?
> > > Where's our female pope? Look at those Catholic
> > > priests molesting children left and right!
> > >
> > > I don't understand why you all don't form your OWN
> > > anti-christ church/anti-doug wilson/anti-whatever
> > > LISTSERV and leave this one to its origins of
> > > discussing Moscow issues. Your Anti-Christ Church
> > > rhetoric and hate has suffocated an otherwise helpful,
> > > infornative, interesting, lively forum. Does anyone
> > > remember PRE-Tom Hansen/Jackie Woolf, etc? I do!!!
> > >
> > > Debbie Gray
> > > p.s. Tom, I am at home on my home computer (purchased
> > > with wages from the UI), do you want my home address?
> > > Phone #? I hope you like my IP address... i like how
> > > the numbers make such a random pattern. Do i need to
> > > give a permission slip from my spouse or kids that I
> > > am not misusing my personal time?
> > >
> > > --- kerry becker <kerrybecker6924 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > >
> > > The irony is that this stuff happens in many churches.
> > > You know what kind of heyday we could have if we had
> > > a mole like J Ford in the mormon church?  Think about
> > > it.  Now there's some good stuff.  Maybe we could
> > > start an "Outing Churches in Moscow" blog?  : )
> > >
> > > But seriously, there really ISNT a fine line between
> > > "dialogue" and "obsession."  It's clear as day which
> > > is which and I believe that's what most are trying to
> > > eliminate in these postings.
> > >
> > > Reminds me of a quote;
> > >
> > > "Great minds talk about great ideas; average minds
> > > talk about average ideas; small minds talk about other
> > > people.--Anonymous
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________________>
>  ___________
> > > Get your own web address.
> > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
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