[Vision2020] Wilson's Excuses
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Sun Feb 18 10:53:14 PST 2007
Just read his books, listen to his sermons (you going regularly yet?) and
talk to him. He has said it several different ways in several different
mediums - PICK ONE.
J :]
>From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
>To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilson's Excuses
>Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:10:23 -0800
>
>All righty then, here's your chance to turn me to the dim side. Provide for
>me a cite in which "Doug hiself" declares:
>
>"I'll (He'll) kill a child that disobeys his parent, I'll(he'll) kill any
>gay just because they are gay"
>
>I don't want to hear where you infer this from something he or someone else
>says. I don't want your subjective paraphrase, I want the exact quote
>verbatim, in context, just the way you spewed it. (or as close as your
>fevered little mind can come) With several hundred occasions I'm guessing
>that this will be a walk in the park for you.
>
>On the faint chance you can't manage to provide me with the proof that you
>claim abounds, how about you give it a rest for a while?
>
>g
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilson's Excuses
>
>
> >
> > So, let me get this straight...hearing it from DOUG hiself is not good
> > enough for Gary to believe it? He has to have other people's input
>before
> > he buys into what the Girthmister has said SEVERAL HUNDRED TIMES!!???
> >
> > Huh....something just WRONG about that picture. Either you buy what
>Doug
> > says with his own mouth or you don't. All fence sitting gets you is
> > splinters!
> >
> >
> > J :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> >>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilson's Excuses
> >>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:12:07 -0800
> >>
> >>Just another remainder: When Keely asked the Cultmaster during her
> >>broadcasted debate with him to repudiate the article by Greg Dickison at
> >>issue, Wilson refused to do so.
> >>
> >>Also:
> >>http://www.credenda.org/about.php
> >>
> >>Editor: Douglas Wilson
> >>Senior Editor: Douglas Jones
> >>Managing Editor: Nathan Wilson
> >>Contributing Editors:Chris Schlect, Ben Merkle, Gary Hagen, Peter
>Leithart,
> >>Patch Blakey, Joost Nixon, Gregory C. Dickison, and Pablo MacArthur.
> >>
> >>Credenda Agenda is a bimonthly periodical exploring all areas of life
>from
> >>a biblical, classical Protestant perspective.
> >>
> >>Wilson will not repudiate the article because it is part of his cult
>dicta,
> >>and is what the world would be if he could establish and rule over his
> >>desperately desired theocracy.
> >>
> >>Gary wrote:
> >>
> >>"I wouldn't comment on it till I had an opportunity to speak with folks
>a
> >>little closer to the source."
> >>
> >>Have you now spoken with folks a little closer to the source?
> >>
> >>
> >>W.
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: g. crabtree
> >>To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
> >>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:50 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilson's Excuses
> >>
> >>
> >>I am only too well aware of what the lists resident lunatic is ranting
> >>about.
> >>
> >> A computer melt down just about a year ago deprives me of my sent
>items
> >>file but, if memory serves me, what I actually said regarding the
>article
> >>you reference was that I wouldn't comment on it till I had an
>opportunity
> >>to speak with folks a little closer to the source. No promise to report
> >>back, I don't do homework assignments. Sorry.
> >>
> >>g
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Art Deco
> >> To: Vision 2020
> >> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:30 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilson's Excuses
> >>
> >>
> >> Below is what JFord was referring to. Or have you forgotten your
> >>written intention to get back to the list after your investigation of
>this
> >>gem?
> >>
> >> W.
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm
> >> Magistralis
> >>
> >>
> >> Your Eye Shall Not Pity
> >> Greg Dickison
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> he civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the
> >>wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without
>guidance
> >>on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards
>of
> >>judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include
> >>premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality,
>adultery,
> >>homosexuality, and cursing one's parents (Ex. 21:14; 21:16; 22:18;
>22:19;
> >>Lev. 20:10; 20:13; Ex. 21:17).
> >>
> >> In contemporary American jurisprudence, none of these offenses is
> >>punishable by death, with the occasional exception of murder. The
> >>magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some
>Christians
> >>believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that
>the
> >>"harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is
>the
> >>result of the mistaken belief that the Old Testament has no further
> >>application after the advent of Christ. This is an exegetical problem.
>Too
> >>often, it is the result of a sinful view of the criminal. This sin is
> >>called pity.
> >>
> >> Pity is a compassionate and sympathetic response to another's
>distress.
> >>It manifests itself by some action deemed to be beneficent to the one
>who
> >>is the object of the pity. It is characterized by the thought, "There,
>but
> >>for the grace of God, go I." So what is wrong with that? Why is pity a
>sin?
> >>
> >> First, pity is not always a sin. But neither is it always good. The
> >>Bible teaches that the moral character of pity depends on the context in
> >>which it is exercised.
> >>
> >> He who has pity on the poor lends to the Lord, and He will pay back
>what
> >>he has given (Prov. 19:17). Pity toward the poor is good. David was
> >>condemned by God when he did not take pity on Uriah, a poor man (2 Sam.
> >>12:110). David sought pity when he was under the reproach of his enemies
> >>(Ps. 69:20). It would have been a comfort to him in his adversity. If
>God
> >>had not taken pity on His people, we would all be lost in our sins (Is.
> >>63:9).
> >>
> >> There are also examples of God's refusal to have pity, as when
>Jerusalem
> >>defiled His sanctuary (Ez. 5:11). Likewise, God included in the law
> >>specific prohibitions against the exercise of pity in meting out
> >>punishment.
> >>
> >>
> >> If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter,
>the
> >>wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly
> >>entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,". . . you shall
>not
> >>consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall
>you
> >>spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him . . . (Deut.
> >>13:69).
> >>
> >>
> >> But if anyone hates his neighbor, lies in wait for him, rises against
> >>him and strikes him mortally, so that he dies, and he flees to one of
>these
> >>cities, then the elders of his city shall send and bring him from there,
> >>and deliver him over to the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may
>die.
> >>Your eye shall not pity him, but you shall put away the guilt of
>innocent
> >>blood from Israel, that it may go well with you (Deut. 19:1113).
> >>
> >>
> >> If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of
> >>wrongdoing, then both men in the controversy shall stand before the
>Lord,
> >>before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. And the
>judges
> >>shall make diligent inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false
>witness,
> >>who has testified falsely against his brother, then you shall do to him
>as
> >>he thought to have done to his brother, so you shall put away the evil
> >>person from among you. Your eye shall not pity . . . (Deut. 19.1619,
>21).
> >>
> >>
> >> If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue
>her
> >>husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out the hand
>and
> >>seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye
>shall
> >>not pity her (Deut. 25:11, 12).
> >>
> >>
> >> The tendency of modern American law is to look at whether the
>particular
> >>criminal deserves the penalty involved. Witnesses are brought in
>(usually
> >>the defendant's mother) to say that Johnny is really a good boy who just
> >>got in with the wrong crowd and deserves another chance. Or the judge
> >>considers whether the accused is sorry for what he did. Those who side
>with
> >>the victim can go to the other extreme; the prosecutor is allowed to
>bring
> >>in witnesses to testify to what a great guy the victim was, or to the
> >>impact of the crime on the victim's family. Justice becomes a contest to
> >>see which side can generate the most pity.
> >>
> >> God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the
>criminal.
> >>If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the
> >>punishment. Your eye shall not pity. Neither is the repentance of the
> >>accused relevant to the imposition of the sentence. When it was
>discovered
> >>that Achan had kept some of the spoil of Jericho, Joshua beseeched him
>to
> >>repent. And Achan answered Joshua and said, `Indeed, I have sinned
>against
> >>the Lord God of Israel, and this is what I have done . . . (Josh.
>7:19-20).
> >>After Achan confessed, he was still stoned to death.
> >>
> >> Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has
>decided
> >>the matter. The magistrate, God's minister, is to faithfully execute
> >>justice according to God's standard, not man's.
> >>
> >> What the Bible does not teach is that the preaching of the gospel and
> >>repentance have no place on death row. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a
> >>place where there is a more immediate need of grace, and a presentation
>of
> >>the gospel should be the first response of Christians to those who are
> >>condemned. But condemnation still must come if we are to be obedient to
> >>God's Word. We must respond to the wrongdoer biblically in both judgment
> >>and grace.
> >>
> >> This means that we must return to an obedience which confines pity
> >>within the bounds which God has established for us.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: g. crabtree
> >> To: J Ford ; vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 3:46 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilson's Excuses
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "He'll kill a child that disobeys his parent,
> >> he'll kill any gay just because they are gay"
> >>
> >> Get a grip on yourself. This is over the top, even by the standards
>that
> >>you have previously set. The term slander gets tossed about pretty
>freely
> >>on this forum (even when they really mean libel) but there is no
>question
> >>that you are crossing a line with these kinds of ridicules and baseless
> >>comments. Please just stop.
> >>
> >> g
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> >> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 1:46 PM
> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Wilson's Excuses
> >>
> >>
> >> > During that same "talk" Wilson said he has "welcomed back into the
> >>church
> >> > fold, those young men". What does this mean? The children victims
> >>and
> >> > their families, of Sitler and Jamin get to look at his ugly mug no
> >>matter
> >> > what function, or service, or gathering is going on. Wilson
>REFUSED
> >>to
> >> > admit or confirm that Sitler or Jamin would ever be banned from any
>of
> >>the
> >> > above, only that they would be monitored. And remember that just
> >>because
> >> > Jamin had his charge reduced (ostensibly because the victim had
> >>"consented"
> >> > to Jamin's sexual attention) does not mean that what he did was any
> >>less
> >> > severe an act of child molestation than what Sitler did to his
> >>victims.
> >> > Court technicalities do NOT negate the seriousness of the crime,
>just
> >>the
> >> > perception of the legal system that they are "winning" a case. And
>as
> >>far
> >> > as "Let's Make A Deal Monty" Thompson is concerned, that's better
> >>looking
> >> > than a check in the "maybe could win" column any day. He did not
>want
> >>to
> >> > take the chance of the child being up on the stand and explaining
>to
> >>the
> >> > jury that she wanted and invited Jamin's attentions as he felt that
> >>would
> >> > hurt his case. The only thing it hurts is Jamin and the child -
>WHO
> >>KNEW
> >> > THAT CHILD WAS NOT CAPABLE OF MAKING THAT KIND OF RATIONAL
>DECISION,
> >>but he
> >> > went with his sickly-man instincts and did it anyway - repeatedly
>over
> >>a
> >> > very long period of time. There is NO distinction between Sitler
> >>hurting
> >> > 100(+) victims and Jamin hurting one or two victims...once done, it
> >>can not
> >> > be undone and the damage is far reaching into that child's life and
> >>future.
> >> > Yet, Wilson will allow both of these creeps back into the church,
>back
> >>into
> >> > the fold, back into the activities (do not be fooled by his saying
> >>"they
> >> > will monitored" - just how is Wilson going to do that unless those
> >>creeps
> >> > are chained to someone else?) If I were a parent of a child victim
>of
> >> > either of these molesters, and a member of that church, I would be
> >>doing
> >> > some serious thinking about continuing the membership at such a
>church
> >>as
> >> > well as the continued "non-pastorship" of Doug Wilson. This is a
>man
> >>who
> >> > has receive ZERO training in pastoring as well ZERO training or
> >>education in
> >> > the treatment of child molesters.
> >> >
> >> > And let there be NO doubt about it - Sitler and Jamin are CHILD
> >> > MOLESTERS!!!! And they will repeat their crimes because they
>simply
> >>do not
> >> > wish to change. They may calm down, may even go dormant for a
>while -
> >>but
> >> > they WILL strike again. Anyone willing to sacrifice their child
>for
> >>the
> >> > ego-growth of their non-pastor? Every time Sitler and Jamin are
> >>anywhere
> >> > near a child, that is EXACTLY what you are doing.
> >> >
> >> > Oh and lets not forget the lame-assed reasoning of Wilson that he
>has
> >> > received their confessions and has forgiven them their crimes,
>because
> >> > that's the business he is in. He'll kill a child that disobeys his
> >>parent,
> >> > he'll kill any gay just because they are gay, he'll call people he
> >>does not
> >> > even know his enemy just because they don't agree with him - but
> >>Sitler and
> >> > Jamin, he'll forgive for ruining the lives of innocents! Like he's
>in
> >>any
> >> > position to do either!
> >> >
> >> > How about the children victims of those two? Both men are supposed
>to
> >>be
> >> > paying restitution to those victims. Court papers show both are
> >>BEHIND in
> >> > doing that. Of course, the CC will hire Sitler when he gets out
>just
> >>as
> >> > they have done with Jamin. How else are they going to make the
>money
> >> > necessary to pay this debt? Well, and now Jamin has two moving
> >>violations
> >> > he has to pay for. TWO, in less than two weeks out of jail, Jamin
> >>gets into
> >> > trouble - Great start, Jamin. Can't even keep you nose clean long
> >>enough to
> >> > travel safely on the very streets children live on!
> >> >
> >> > This is the type of monitoring Wilson will be doing? Parents -
>KNOW
> >>WHERE
> >> > YOUR KIDS ARE AND WHO THEY ARE TALKING TO!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > J :]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
> >> >>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Gooooooooood Morning, Moscow, Idaho
> >> >>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:47:28 -0800
> >> >>
> >> >>Tom quotes Cultmaster Douglas Wilson:
> >> >>
> >> >>"I'll just speak for our church, in Christ Church [sic]. If I
>found
> >>out
> >> >>that a member of our church or a church officer was lying to
> >>non-believers
> >> >>in the community, as a way to get by or protect themself [sic] or
> >>protect
> >> >>his reputation, yes, he'd be disciplined."
> >> >>
> >> >>This is a very curious statement by the Cultmaster. Even if it is
> >> >>believed, as improbable as it is given clear and cogent evidence to
> >>the
> >> >>contrary, there are some revealing omissions of several different
> >> >>categories of lying that are covered by Wilson's statement.
> >> >>
> >> >>Would someone be disciplined if they lied to:
> >> >>
> >> >>1. Protect the Wilson & Family's Christless Cult & Cash Machine
>--
> >>(You
> >> >>must tolerate us since we do not tolerate anyone else)?
> >> >>2. Protect Doug Wilson?
> >> >>3. Protect any of the upper echelon of the cult or their
> >>wives/children?
> >> >>4. Obstruct justice by reporting all crimes, no matter how
>serious,
> >>and
> >> >>especially crimes of child sexual abuse, through the cult ward
>system,
> >>and
> >> >>thus to the Cultmaster, instead of and/or before reporting them to
>the
> >> >>proper law enforcement agencies?
> >> >>5. Does the claim of imposed discipline apply to the lies of the
> >> >>Cultmaster himself? Who would discipline him? The gutless elders,
> >>almost
> >> >>all of whom are economically dependent on Cultmaster Wilson? Yeah,
> >>right.
> >> >>Etc, etc.
> >> >>
> >> >>None of these above acts of falsehood are included in the list of
> >> >>impermissible lies upon closer examination of Wilson's artful
> >>statement.
> >> >>
> >> >>And what does "disciplined" mean?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>For the innocents: This statement and the dog and pony shoe from
> >>which it
> >> >>was quoted is another example of how a skilled confidence trickster
> >> >>operates. A statement is made that seems very open-faced and
>sincere
> >>to
> >> >>those with relaxed, undeveloped, or rusty crap-detectors. But
>after
> >>closer
> >> >>examination, the statement is found to be not so open-faced, but
> >>deceptive,
> >> >>and certainly not believable.
> >> >>
> >> >>Other example of this kind of confidence trickster's dishonesty was
> >> >>Wilson's statement that sexual predator/serial child sexual abuser
>and
> >>New
> >> >>Saint Andrews student James Sitler was not a member of Christ
>Church.
> >>In
> >> >>some technical way, despite being away from his home church in
> >>Colville,
> >> >>Washington, for a long period, it was claimed he was a member
>there.
> >> >>However, here's the truth: Sitler attended Christ Church services
>the
> >> >>entire time he was here attending New Saint Andrews, a Christ
>Church
> >> >>adjunct. Sitler was also boarded by a Christ Church member family
> >>whom he
> >> >>rewarded for their graciousness by sexually debauching their young
> >>children
> >> >>multiple times.
> >> >>
> >> >>Hence, the truth is that James Sitler committed his heinous acts of
> >> >>depravity while under the auspices of Christ Church and its
>affiliate,
> >>New
> >> >>Saint Andrews. Sitler continued to engage in this egregious
>preying
> >>upon
> >> >>young victims even though several New Saint Andrews students found
>his
> >> >>obsession with children to be very troubling and perhaps
>pathological.
> >> The
> >> >>thoughtful reader will also see a connection between point 4 above
>and
> >>the
> >> >>Sitler case. The thoughtful reader may also wonder when Cultmaster
> >>Wilson
> >> >>first learned about the probabilities concerning Sitler's sexual
> >> >>proclivities -- before or after his matriculation at New Saint
> >>Andrews.
> >> >>
> >> >>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> >> >>deco at moscow.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>----- Original Message -----
> >> >>From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> >> >>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >> >>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 6:02 AM
> >> >>Subject: [Vision2020] Gooooooooood Morning, Moscow, Idaho
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > "I'll just speak for our church, in Christ Church. If I found
>out
> >>that
> >> >>a
> >> >> > member of our church or a church officer was lying to
>non-believers
> >>in
> >> >>the
> >> >> > community, as a way to get by or protect themself or protect his
> >> >>reputation,
> >> >> > yes, he'd be disciplined."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Doug Wilson (January 31, 2007)
> >> >> > http://www.tomandrodna.com/Sounds/Doug_Wilson_Liers_013107.mp3
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Stay tuned, Moscow.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Tom Hansen
> >> >> > Moscow, Idaho
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ******************************************
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "People walking up to you
> >> >> > Singing glory hallelujah
> >> >> > And they're trying to sock it to you
> >> >> > In the name of the Lord."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > - Joe South (from "Games People Play")
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ******************************************
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > =======================================================
> >> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >> > =======================================================
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>=======================================================
> >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> >>=======================================================
> >> >
> >> > _________________________________________________________________
> >> > http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline
> >> >
> >> > =======================================================
> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >> > =======================================================
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
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> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> http://www.fsr.net
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> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >>=======================================================
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