[Vision2020] Bible study

[Tony]

Ralph, I too have no "need" to insist that there is or is not an overarching 
intelligence, I simply prefer the humble position that I cannot 
unequivocally posit one or the other.  I take no exception to your critical 
reading of the Bible as I myself find some of its content confounding.  I 
must also confess frustration with dogmatists who prefer to accept blindly 
without using their intellect to question and analyze.  This tendency is not 
exclusive to the Christian community and indeed I find atheists to be as 
devout, if you will, in their faith that no God exists, as believers are in 
their convictions.

Alas, I have no interest in joining you in the laborious study of the Bible, 
but I do appreciate your offer just the same.

My best,   -T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen at uidaho.edu>
To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Bible study


> Tony,
>
> Here is a quotation that should answer your first question.
>
> Napoleon: You have written this huge book on the system of the world 
> without once mentioning the author of the universe.
> Laplace: Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis.
>
> Does this cause you discomfort? It doesn't me. In fact, I think the 
> beginning of wisdom is to know our limitations. Are you familiar with 
> Confucius? Let me quote:
> Confucianism is a completely humanistic, down-to-earth,  commonsensical 
> approach to life, dispensing entirely with theology,  metaphysics, creeds, 
> and the whole paraphernalia of salvation- securing that occupies so large 
> a place in Western religions. This  attitude was neatly summarized by 
> Confucius himself when a disciple  asked him to comment on the possibility 
> of life after death:
>
> "We have not yet learned to know life. How can we know what comes  after 
> death? We do not yet know how to live. Do not trouble with  another life 
> before you know how to live a good life with men on  earth. Live in one 
> world at a time."
>
> And in the Holy Bible we read: "The dead know nothing, they have no  more 
> reward."
>
> Tony, I get along quite well with serious Christians. It's the  arrogant 
> fundamentalists I go after. I show them (and the general  public) what the 
> Bible really says. Is that lampooning for sport? I  have been thanked for 
> my letters by university deans, businessmen,  bankers, clergymen, 
> scientists, newspaper editors and many others. I  have also been a regular 
> contributor to two different listserves on  Biblical Errancy for many 
> years.
>
> I take the Bible seriously. That's why I belong to the Society of 
> Biblical Literature, the world's oldest and largest association of  Bible 
> scholars. I also belong to the Biblical Archaeology Society,  and the 
> Jesus Seminar. I attend their conventions and workshops. Two  years ago I 
> went to the big SBL international convention in San  Antonio TX. There 
> were 8,400 of us there.
>
> So Tony, if you are interested in serious Bible study, I'm perfectly 
> willing to help you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ralph
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Tony wrote:
>
>> Look, Ralph, you don't want to answer the question of what your 
>> scholarship has led you to conclude with regard to the existence or  non 
>> existence of an overarching intelligence.  That's fine, I can  agree to 
>> avoid the subject if it causes you discomfort.  But surely  you cannot be 
>> seriously denying your lengthy history through the  Lewiston Tribune's 
>> letters column of lampooning Christians for sport?
>>
>> George Bernard Shaw notwithstanding, I remain curious.
>>
>> Cordially,   -Tony
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Nielsen"  <nielsen at uidaho.edu>
>> To: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
>> Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: Hymn to the Intelligent Designer
>>
>>
>>> Tony,
>>>
>>> I thought you were talking about drawing conclusions about  ultimate 
>>> questions. That's why I asked you the questions I did.  But instead of 
>>> answering them you accuse me of "lampooning the  beliefs of so many 
>>> others for so many years."
>>>
>>> Tony, I always try to avoid ad hominem remarks and stick with what  the 
>>> Bible actually says. I try to be a scholar, not a believer.  But  that 
>>> isn't easy these days. As George Bernard Shaw said, “Two  percent  of 
>>> the people think; three percent of the people think  they think;  and 
>>> ninety-five percent of the people would rather  die than think.”
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Tony wrote:
>>>
>>>> I want to speculate because it is a fascinating exercise Ralph. 
>>>> Besides, every question ever answered was speculation prior to   being 
>>>> resolved. Besides again, I was curious, after listening to   you 
>>>> lampoon the beliefs of so many others over so many years,  what  your 
>>>> particular views were.  Is your mind open to any  number of 
>>>> possibilities in an infinite universe?  Or are you an  atheist who  is 
>>>> just as devout in his disbelief as any believer  might be in his 
>>>> belief?
>>>>
>>>> -T
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Nielsen" 
>>>> <nielsen at uidaho.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Tony, why should we waste our time drawing conclusions about 
>>>>> theoretical speculation that neither you nor I are in a  position  to 
>>>>> know anything about? All we know is that we are  products of 
>>>>> evolution in an ever-changing universe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are venomous animals and insects the product of an "overarching 
>>>>> intelligence"? Are hurricanes, earthquakes and tsunamis? Would  you 
>>>>> design a world like that? If not, why try to attribute it  to 
>>>>> anything intelligent?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 28, 2007, at 5:56 PM, Tony wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph,  please!  My question, now asked for the third time, was 
>>>>>> clear: What is YOUR personal conclusion as to the existence or 
>>>>>> nonexistence of an overarching intelligence?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still later,   -T
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Nielsen" 
>>>>>> <nielsen at uidaho.edu>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tony, are you trying to say that you view the Bible as   consistent 
>>>>>>> or compassionate?
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 28, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Tony wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No Ralph, I quite understand that you don't view the Bible as 
>>>>>>>> consistent or compassionate.  What I was attempting (for  the 
>>>>>>>> second time) was to determine what YOUR personal  conclusion is 
>>>>>>>> as to the existence or nonexistence of an  overarching 
>>>>>>>> intelligence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Later,  -T
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Nielsen" 
>>>>>>>> <nielsen at uidaho.edu>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tony,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is God a mean S.O.B.? Not according to himself. By the end  of 
>>>>>>>>> the sixth day of creation "God saw everything that he  had  made, 
>>>>>>>>> and indeed, it was very good" (Genesis 1:31a).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, later in the Bible God does admit that he is a   S.O.B. 
>>>>>>>>> "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and   create woe--  
>>>>>>>>> I the LORD do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).   The Jewish  Study 
>>>>>>>>> Bible says that here the word "woe" is  the  same as  "evil." p. 
>>>>>>>>> 875.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So try to have a pleasant Sabbath, Tony. It will soon be   over--  
>>>>>>>>> at sundown.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>