[Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

Thu Aug 16 21:34:18 PDT 2007

Well, it wasn’t long at all – less than 24 hours in fact – before you took another cheap 
shot, alluding to my moment of transgression. Still, that might be a record!

There was no threat, Mr. Bigot. (I’m taking to heart your point about the right to speech 
being absolute.) 

My main point was that neither you nor Mr. Wilson would dare play your silly rhetorical 
games in contexts where offended folks might hear you. One set of exceptions include 
cases where you offend gays and lesbians, who for reasons that do and do not escape me, 
are unlikely to raise much of a fuss. (Their mothers are another matter.) But as my friends 
back east remind me, this is just how it started in Nazi Germany, with criticisms about 
gays and lesbians. It only expanded once the majority of folks came into the fold.

In any event, my main point was that if you wouldn’t say it in front of my friend Ray or 
Martina Navratilova, then you just shouldn’t say it.

That’s the point, Mr. Bigot!

--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote: 

=============
So just exactly what is it that your "friends" are going to do that would 
prevent me from reneging on my belief that the right to express a point of 
view is absolute? There is something you really need to get through your 
head. Threats don't cut any ice. Just because you and your apparently 
thuggish buddies have the mistaken impression that you are standing up for 
some absolute doesn't mean intimidation is somehow cool. Then again maybe 
it's a Jersey thing?

g
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

Gary,

Let's see how long you can go without mentioning the incident!

And who is talking about what happened 150 years ago? I'm talking about 
Wilson's historical revisionism, which is less than a decade old. 
Revisionism about slavery is just as bad as revisionism about the holocaust 
in my book. We are not talking about mere opinions; we're talking about 
radical rightwing viewspoints.

Again, I would like to see you give support for Wilson's right -- his moral 
right, not his legal right which no one doubts -- to suggest that slavery 
has a biblical justification to some of my Christian African-American 
friends!

--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

=============
As I have said before, I believe you already! I did not bring the incident
up to point fingers at any individual (note the lack of names) but to marvel
at how it's a joke or at worst a minor lapse in manners to out right
threaten someone with bodily injury but to comment on something that
happened 150 years ago, rightly or wrongly, is an unforgivable horror that
threatens the entire fabric of society and intimidates people for miles
around. Seems a little odd to me. I'm just sayin.

g

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

Gary,

What double-standard? I acknowledged that mine was a mistake. I said I was
sorry -- if you don't believe my sincerity, I'll say it again: I'm VERY
sorry.

And we are talking about my one admitted mistake, over a long period of
public discourse, against a string of more intimindating speech toward
African-Americans, gays, feminists, Muslims, liberals, lesbians,
progressives,
etc.

And don't even get me started about those zoning issues!

--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

=============
So let me get this straight. If one of your buddies comes right out and
threatens a person on this forum with bodily harm, ala punch them in the
nose or kick their cod piece into low earth orbit it's merely a jolly jest.
To express an opinion on matters theological or temporal is "horrific" and
"intimidating."I think what it is that I'm forgetting is the enormous double
standard that you have erected for yourself and your faithful.

g
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: keely emerinemix
  To: g. crabtree ; Joe Campbell
  Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
  Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 8:53 AM
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

  There's another saying, Gary, that goes, "All things in their own time."
I think you're forgetting that they don't feel free to do the "action" thing
now -- but have every expectation to when the time is right for good ol'
Christian patriarchal dominion to take center stage.

  And, by the way, words are horrific as well.  I know of a man on this list
who's still reeling from Joan Opyr's frustration-driven-but-still-in-jest
promise to levy a well-placed kick in the groin.  It's evidently had quite
the impact on him.  Words can, indeed, have enormous effect.

  keely

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: jampot at roadrunner.com
    To: joekc at adelphia.net
    Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 06:52:22 -0700
    CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

    Mr. Campbell,

    There is a big difference between how people ARE treated and how someone
might feel after misinterpreting (or having it misinterpreted for them) any
given message. One you have direct control over and are completely
responsible for the other is left in the hands of the recipient to do with
what they will. If they decide to "feel" bad I'm afraid that there is little
to be done for it. As I have said before, it's my understanding that Mr.
Wilson's congregation is made up of a variety of people including minorities
and homosexuals. (a recent interview in the LMT on seminary student Chris
Morris leaps immediately to mind)

    There's an old saying that periodically makes the rounds that states
"actions speak louder than words." I think that this particularly applies
when the words have been manipulated by others to stir up the maximum level
of foment. On the other hand the actions that I have been able to see with
my own two eyes lead me to believe that the community in question is
ultimately benign.

    If you want to make an effective case against this group, stop
reinterpreting fellow detractors reinterpretations of books, articles and
news stories and point to solid evidence of the horrors that you claim are
occurring on a daily basis. I'm guessing that while you and yours are long
on rhetoric your short on specifics. Till you can turn that equation around
I'm afraid that it's you that is "irrelevant."

    g
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
    To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
    Cc: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>; "Warren Hayman"
<whayman at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
    Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:33 PM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

    Gary,

    For the most part, your points below are irrelevant. My concern for
Wilson is not with
    how he treats the women in his family. My concern is not even about how
he'd treat me,
    or how Doug Farris would treat me, were I to join either for dinner. I
feel pretty confident
    that they'll treat me just fine -- white, Christian male that I am.

    My concern is about how my Jewish friends might be treated. My concern
is how my
    Muslim, lesbian, and atheist friends ARE being treated, given Wilson’s
threatening and
    divisive speech. I worry about the feelings of my Christian,
African-American friends,
    given Wilson’s justification of slavery.

    I noticed that you haven't said anything about this view:

    All non-Christians hate God,

    which was apparently endorsed by some of your Kirk friends. I imagine
that it will take
    awhile to piece together a justification for this, or even to explain
how it is that folks can
    say something so stupid yet complain when they get criticism back in
response.

    --
    Joe Campbell

    ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

    =============
    Other works by this author causes me to firmly doubt that he is likely
to
    refer to his mother, sister, wife, daughters, daughters in law or grand
    daughters as "chattel." Prove me wrong.

    g
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
    To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
    Cc: "Warren Hayman" <whayman at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>;
"Joe
    Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
    Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 5:56 PM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

    >>  I recommend _Her Hand in
    >> Marriage_ or _Reforming Marriage_, in which Doug discusses how a
woman
    >> is to pass as chattel between her father and her future husband.
    >>
    >> Quite simply it does not.
    >
    > And how, Gary, did you come to be aware of this, given that you have
    > read neither book?
    >
    > -- ACS
    >

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served
daily. Visit now.