[Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

[g. crabtree]

Campbell, (I love it when you get all terse and butch)

How does a guy who purportedly teaches logic read the truism "actions speak 
louder than words" and come to the conclusion that since "words aren't 
actions" and that "only actions can be criticized? Heck, maybe ONLY a guy 
who teaches logic could make that leap.

You have a unique ability to add two and two  and get Tuesday. Not every 
sentence is an absolute. I sometimes make comments that do not mean always, 
never, only, and must. You should be able to recognize these by the fact 
they do not include the words always, never, only, and must. Try not to read 
more into what I write then is actually there.

As for the rest of your post it seems we are back to the whack-a-mole game. 
The Kill the homosexuals argument didn't fly so lets try the slavery issue. 
The slavery thing got no traction so lets carp about the subjugation of 
women.The women as chattel charge was obvious tripe so lets see if we can 
make anything of the non-Christians hate God simplification. If it will 
sooth your ruffled feathers provide me the document or at least point me to 
it, I'll read the quote in context and tell you what I think. On the face of 
it I would tend to agree. Non-Christians may fall down on their knees for 
their own personal deity, who or whatever that might be but its unlikely 
they're all that wild about a Christian God.

What you should assume from my conspicuously absent apology is that I think 
there is something wrong with your argument, you are wrong in general and as 
a rule, and a trifle thick and ill humored to top it all off.

Tootles,
g
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>; "Warren Hayman" 
<whayman at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest


Crabtree,

First, if what you say below is true you have no basis to ever criticize me. 
We've never
met. You've never seen any of my actions. The only evidence you have of my 
character is
based on my words. But words aren't actions and only actions may be 
criticized
(according to your philosophy). By your definition of ‘action,’ I haven’t 
done anything to
Christ Church and neither have most of the CC critics.

So if what you say below is correct, then you should apologize for every 
criticism of a
CC critic that you've made. If you don’t apologize, I’ll assume that even 
you know that
there is something wrong with your argument.

Second, you accuse me of manipulating words but all I’ve done is draw the 
conclusion

All non-Christians hate God

>From this quote supplied by Doug:

"In fact, it is this very freedom that non-Christians fear,
for it replaces the messianic State, which they trust,
with the sovereign God, whom they hate."

If you can explain to me how it is that the first claim does not follow from 
the quote, I
would be much obliged. I know you prefer grand generalizations to details 
but still I ask.

--
Joe Campbell

=============
Mr. Campbell,

There is a big difference between how people ARE treated and how someone 
might feel after misinterpreting (or having it misinterpreted for them) any 
given message. One you have direct control over and are completely 
responsible for the other is left in the hands of the recipient to do with 
what they will. If they decide to "feel" bad I'm afraid that there is little 
to be done for it. As I have said before, it's my understanding that Mr. 
Wilson's congregation is made up of a variety of people including minorities 
and homosexuals. (a recent interview in the LMT on seminary student Chris 
Morris leaps immediately to mind)

There's an old saying that periodically makes the rounds that states 
"actions speak louder than words." I think that this particularly applies 
when the words have been manipulated by others to stir up the maximum level 
of foment. On the other hand the actions that I have been able to see with 
my own two eyes lead me to believe that the community in question is 
ultimately benign.

If you want to make an effective case against this group, stop 
reinterpreting fellow detractors reinterpretations of books, articles and 
news stories and point to solid evidence of the horrors that you claim are 
occurring on a daily basis. I'm guessing that while you and yours are long 
on rhetoric your short on specifics. Till you can turn that equation around 
I'm afraid that it's you that is "irrelevant."

g
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>; "Warren Hayman" 
<whayman at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest


Gary,

For the most part, your points below are irrelevant. My concern for Wilson 
is not with
how he treats the women in his family. My concern is not even about how he'd 
treat me,
or how Doug Farris would treat me, were I to join either for dinner. I feel 
pretty confident
that they'll treat me just fine -- white, Christian male that I am.

My concern is about how my Jewish friends might be treated. My concern is 
how my
Muslim, lesbian, and atheist friends ARE being treated, given Wilson’s 
threatening and
divisive speech. I worry about the feelings of my Christian, 
African-American friends,
given Wilson’s justification of slavery.

I noticed that you haven't said anything about this view:

All non-Christians hate God,

which was apparently endorsed by some of your Kirk friends. I imagine that 
it will take
awhile to piece together a justification for this, or even to explain how it 
is that folks can
say something so stupid yet complain when they get criticism back in 
response.

--
Joe Campbell

---- "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

=============
Other works by this author causes me to firmly doubt that he is likely to
refer to his mother, sister, wife, daughters, daughters in law or grand
daughters as "chattel." Prove me wrong.

g
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
Cc: "Warren Hayman" <whayman at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>; "Joe
Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest


>>  I recommend _Her Hand in
>> Marriage_ or _Reforming Marriage_, in which Doug discusses how a woman
>> is to pass as chattel between her father and her future husband.
>>
>> Quite simply it does not.
>
> And how, Gary, did you come to be aware of this, given that you have
> read neither book?
>
> -- ACS
>