[Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest

[pkraut at moscow.com]

Ignorant people will always think as they will and we can do little to 
change them. There are those who won't go to Seattle because it rains 'all 
the time' and so miss a lot of the greatness of the northwest. I knew of 
some who wouldn't/won't go to CDA because of the Aryans even tho those who 
live there do not see them around except at special meetings. My feeling 
is it is no loss to the most of us if they want to believe a headline in a 
news anything. It is much like the stupid person who told someone moving 
to CDA that there are lots of rattlesnakes on Tubbs Hill. What?? Of course 
there are some on this list and in other places who carry on the 
misleading stuff but ya gotta trust your source.




> Hi Again Paul,
> 
> Thanks for continuing the discussion, and I apologize for my delay in
> responding.  It's summer  :-)
> 
> I'd like to clarify, if I might, that my comments were more of a general
> nature than addressing the specific Trinity Fest protest, about which I
> really didn't know much at all:  I don't know who organized it, although 
I
> certainly agree with the ideas expressed in the flyer Rose quoted on her
> blog; and I don’t know who participated or why the night of 8/3 was 
chosen.
> 
> Now that I've gotten that out of the way . . . 
> 
> I guess I look at things differently than you seem to:  I *do* think this
> community needs to stand strong against the lunacy of the Christ Church
> hierarchy and their worldview, including how they want to remake our 
local
> community.
> 
> While Christ Church may be happy about the image of our community they've
> managed to create, it's not an illusion that's appreciated by much of the
> community, and by much of the rest of the country.  Indeed, I think the
> illusion is worse than simply not positive -- it's actually harmful for 
this
> community.  Good people express hesitation about moving themselves -- and
> their families -- here for jobs or to start businesses because Christ 
Church
> has made this community look like one where racism, sexism, homophobia,
> religious intolerance, and a whole host of other evils are "accepted" by 
the
> community.
> 
> Regardless of how "silly" anyone thinks it, we have credible reports from
> unbiased WSU faculty that some students are afraid to come to Moscow 
because
> of the carefully cultivated image Christ Church has propagated about 
Moscow.
> 
> I personally have talked to potential UI students who opted not to come 
here
> because of the Christ Church image problem.
> 
> And, I know a wide variety of people who are less comfortable living here
> since the Kirk's agenda to control the community has become apparent in
> spite of the attempted double-speak by those in the Kirk.
> 
> In part, you wrote:
> "I would be condemned to death if their biblical society ever came to be
> because of my past studying of the occult and because I'm not a 
professing
> Christian.  Yet, they aren't pushing for laws to do that."
> 
> Again, I guess we have different thresholds.  I see that they *do* push 
for
> laws to make this community, this state, and this nation conform to their
> worldview.  They were outraged by a silly top-free carwash a few years 
back,
> so they threatened and protested and coerced our elected officials to get
> female breasts criminalized here.  In the process, Moscow, Idaho made
> national (and international) news as a laughingstock.  A lot of time,
> energy, and money was expended by local government to placate the Kirk 
and
> their threats, and as a result, one of the most restrictive -- and likely
> unconstitutional -- laws in the nation was put on our local books in 
2002,
> helped in no small part by their stealth council member.  AFAIK, the law 
has
> yet to be enforced in spite of the fact that virtually every day this
> summer, and most days the rest of the year, I've seen clear violations of
> the ordinance.  Yeah, Moscow, is sooo much safer since the Kirk forced 
that
> law through, isn't it?  That was a *great* use of scarce resources just 
to
> appease a very small but vocal minority.  You can blame the City 
officials
> if you want (there's plenty of blame to go around, something I hope 
people
> won't forget with the upcoming elections and some of the names we're 
likely
> to see as candidates), but the blame also rightly belongs with those who 
got
> their shorts in a twist and organized to force the rest of us to kowtow 
to
> their desires:  the Kirk.
> 
> They actively supported of Prop. 1 in 1994, which failed.  They actively
> supported the Anti-Marriage Amendment last year, which passed.  They've 
run
> local stealth candidates, some of whom won, some of whom lost.  They -- 
and
> their children -- have picketed local businesses and filed criminal and
> zoning complaints and boycotted businesses with which they disagree.  
Please
> note:  these ***actions*** were *not* those only of the hierarchy but 
also
> by "regular" Kirk members and their children.
> 
> With all due respect, Paul, I think you are making a mistake the Kirk
> depends on the uninformed tolerant amongst us making:  you fail to take
> their stated objectives at face value.  According to the Kirk, things 
like
> feminism, abortion, and homosexuality are clear symptoms (or perhaps 
causes)
> of the moral decay in our community, and in our nation, and as Jesus'
> soldiers, they have a duty to rid our community of those "evils" using 
any
> and all methods -- no matter how dishonest and/or despicable -- at their
> disposal.  If that means lying to civil authorities, so be it.  This
> ***isn't*** belief we're talking about, these are concrete actions and
> concrete attacks on our community.
> 
> I don't know if you've ever been pointed in this direction before, but in
> case you've not, I recommend you take a bit of time to read Jim Wilson's
> _Principles of War A Handbook on Strategic Evangelism_.  Luckily, it's
> freely available online and is a very quick read:
> http://www.ccmbooks.org/onlinebooks/pow/index.htm
> 
> Then please think about what you read in light of Doug Wilson's comments
> from the pulpit on 12-28-2003:
> 
> "In the 60s my father wrote a small but enormously influential book 
called
> The Principles of War.  In it he applied the principle of physical 
warfare
> to what he calls strategic evangelism.  This idea of warfare is 
necessary in
> order to understand a central part of what is happening here, and by 
this I
> mean the concept of the decisive point.  A decisive point is one which is
> simultaneously strategic and feasible.  Strategic means that it would be 
a
> significant loss to the enemy if taken.  Feasible means that it’s 
possible
> to take.  New York City is strategic but not feasible; Bovil is feasible 
but
> not strategic.  But small towns with major universities, Moscow and 
Pullman,
> say, are both.  Now, this explains why the conflict is here.”
> 
> The Kirk -- not this community -- started the conflict *here* and 
continues
> the conflict *here.*  They rely on our genuine tolerance -- and our 
inertia
> -- to allow them remake this community into what *they* want.
> 
> You also wrote:
> "Now, as has been pointed out to me, if people have protested the 
officials
> in Moscow that appeared to allow the rules to be bent or broken and 
nothing
> has come of it - then what do you do?  I say, whatever you do, leave the
> individual Christ Church members alone unless you are talking about the 
guys
> that make the decisions there.  Take up your fight, again, with the 
powers
> that be in Moscow.  Talk to the press (again)."
> 
> Quite frankly, I had a lot more sympathy for the rank-and-file members of
> the Kirk until they actively became a part of the Conspiracy of Silence.
> Since then, my respect for their autonomy requires that I hold them
> accountable as well.
> 
> I want to clarify that it's not just *Moscow* city officials who've 
allowed
> the Kirk hierarchy to get away with their shenanigans.  I find it 
hilarious
> -- but also sad -- what skids can be greased with a the gift of a bottle 
of
> wine or two or three coupled by a wolf in sheep's clothing saying "We're
> local Christians -- we'd never do you wrong."
> 
> What to do?  Well, one thing is to NOT sit by an allow the shenanigans to
> continue.  People need to speak up loudly and often and in a variety of
> venues . . . including the Trinity Fest if they so wish.
> 
> Elected officials are one matter.  Clearly we've got too many of them who
> were never taught, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on
> *me*."  Personally, I think it will be interesting to watch how the 
Moscow
> City Council handles the whole "cathedral" notion -- if you want a real
> hoot, go back and read the minutes for the rezoning process.  I'll
> definitely be thinking about accountability when I vote, both for those 
who
> decided to let that rezoning go through with no restrictions in spite of
> their own reservations and concerns *and* for those who were STUPIDLY
> blinded by the empty assurances of "developers.".
> 
> However, staff present a whole other challenge.  They have no direct
> accountability to citizens, so we can't vote them out when we see them 
being
> snookered -- or worse -- time and again by those "nice Christ Church
> people."  For some, I really think it incomprehensible to them that they 
are
> dealing with bald-faced liars who will stoop to any level imaginable to
> manipulate staff to get the Kirk's way.
> 
> So, you chose to not protest the Trinity Fest, and that's your 
prerogative.
> But, really, it's offensive to me and rather presumptuous of you to 
chastise
> others for exercising their legitimate First Amendment rights just 
because
> you aren't moved at this moment to do so.
> 
> Was this sad little performance at the Kenworthy a right time to protest 
the
> Kirk's desire to remake Moscow?  I didn't think so, but it's not up to 
me --
> or to you -- to determine when and where others can speak out about what
> they find repugnant and dangerous.
> 
> I was happy to hear that Mikey's Gyros apparently offered a free showing 
of
> Michael Hayes' documentary _My Town_ during Trinity Fest  :-)
> 
> Sorry this went on for so long, but I do appreciate the dialogue.  I
> sometimes wonder, though, what it's going to take to wake people up?  I
> personally am not willing to wait until  "they ever start trying to pass
> laws that state that heathens or gays or adulterers should be executed," 
as
> you seem to suggest, to register my STRONG objection to their stated 
desires
> and definite actions to remake this community to suit their worldview.
> While some people laugh at the notion, I surely don't want anything like
> what happened in Antelope-Rajneesh-Antelope, OR to happen here.  No, it's
> much better, IMHO, to fight the evil before it becomes law and for this
> community to make it CLEAR that we will not allow our community to be
> morphed to reflect their decidedly ungodly worldview.
> 
> Actions may speak louder than words, and in the case of the Kirk, we have
> plenty of both from its hierarchy to see what their real agenda is.
> 
> 
> JMHO,
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
> 
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> nothing.
> - Edmund Burke
> 
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 through life 
plus
> 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce 
outside
> the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
> author.*****
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 9:22 AM
> To: Saundra Lund
> Cc: 'Bill London'; 'v2020'
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
> 
> Saundra,
> 
> I admit that I don't like that they can apparently do as they wish 
downtown.
> I don't know if they have the right people as part of their church, or if
> they have some kind of influence they shouldn't have.  Maybe the rules
> aren't as clear-cut as we'd like to think and they are simply using 
existing
> loopholes.  I don't know.  
> 
> I also disagree with not only their theology but their idea that they are
> above the law.  That's one of the dangers of organized religion of any 
type.
> When you have God on your side, or so you think, you tend to think you 
are
> special.  I would be condemned to death if their biblical society ever 
came
> to be because of my past studying of the occult and because I'm not a
> professing Christian.  Yet, they aren't pushing for laws to do that.  So
> it's just talk.
> 
> It's a case of "hate the sin, love the sinner".  The individual Christ
> Church members, especially those that aren't elders, should be treated 
with
> the respect due anyone else.  What I'm objecting to here, I've come to
> realize, is barging in on their festival.  You have lots of kind people 
(at
> least the ones I've met), simply having fun.  They have their families
> there, their children are playing together, etc.  Why target them with 
this
> protest?  Let them have their fun.  
> 
> Now, as has been pointed out to me, if people have protested the 
officials
> in Moscow that appeared to allow the rules to be bent or broken and 
nothing
> has come of it - then what do you do?  I say, whatever you do, leave the
> individual Christ Church members alone unless you are talking about the 
guys
> that make the decisions there.  Take up your fight, again, with the 
powers
> that be in Moscow.  Talk to the press (again).
> 
> Just make sure that it's their undue influence that you are protesting 
and
> not their theological beliefs.  They have the right to believe as they 
wish,
> it's their actions that have to be looked at.  If they ever start trying 
to
> pass laws that state that heathens or gays or adulterers should be 
executed,
> then I'll be right beside you to fight it.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Saundra Lund wrote: 
> 
> 	Hi Paul & Visionaries:
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	<sigh>  It's a good question, but I sometimes feel like people
> haven't been paying attention over the last few years.
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	I'm a Christian, and I absolutely do *not* agree with the 
Kirk's . .
> .. theology.  I don't believe in forced salvation (if they can't win us 
over
> by conversion, then they want the teeth of the law to force the rest of 
us
> to act/behave as they think we ought to behave), and it really disturbs 
me
> the way God's word has been perverted by Kirk hierarchy. 
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	However, IMHO, of larger concern is the Kirk hierarchy’s refusal 
to
> follow the "secular" rules and laws the rest of us are expected to 
follow.
> The rules are for others, not for them.  Lying under oath -- no problem.
> Lying to government officials -- again, no problem.  Thumbing their 
noses at
> planning and zoning regulations -- absolutely no problem.  Failing to 
live
> up to the very limited requirements of tax exemption – they excel at 
that.
> Parking where they have no right -- no problem.  Withholding information
> vital to the safety of our community’s children – absolutely no problem.
> And on and on and on the list goes.  In essence, while there are 
wonderful
> individual Kirk members, Christ Church itself has proven time and again 
that
> it is the quintessential Bad Neighbor.
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	My dear friend Rose Huskey blogged on this very topic recently --
> you might want to read what she had to say:
> 
> 	http://cleaning-house.org/?p=591
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	I'm sure she won't mind if I repost here:
> 
> 	"Nests of Pests
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Temperatures in Moscow hover in the 90’s during the dog days of
> August but that’s not why many community members are boiling. For the 
past
> three years we have endured the civic embarrassment generated by the
> pseudo-Ceilidh, pseudo-Calvinistic jamboree known as the Trinity Fest.
> Members of the Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals aka CREC, view 
Moscow
> as their Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca, and Ganges River. They gather in August 
to
> sit at the knee of Massa Doug Wilson, (the brains behind the beards)
> greedily ingesting the racist, sexist, homophobic preaching disgorged 
from
> his pie hole. It has been my habit to refrain from going to town during 
the
> week that Doug attempts to claim Moscow as his papal seat. However, this
> year I will join with friends to acquaint (or reacquaint as the case may 
be)
> CREC visitors and Kirk members with long-standing community values. 
Flyers
> have been posted throughout downtown Moscow and in the windows of 
supportive
> businesses asking folks to:
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	[T]ake a stand for traditional American values of tolerance and
> diversity as we gather to voice our collective community opposition to 
the
> racist, sexist, homophobic agenda of Christ Church, New St. Andrews 
College,
> The Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches and the Association of
> Classical and Christian Schools.
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Uninformed readers might (mistakenly) believe that it is, at 
best,
> ironic to take a stand for tolerance and diversity while simultaneously
> opposing a “religious” celebration. The following analogy might help to
> clarify my position. Suppose you wake up one fine morning and notice - 
in a
> dark corner of your closet - a sweet little nest of spiders. On the whole
> you like spiders (Charlotte’s Web was your favorite childhood book), so 
you
> adopt a live and let live attitude toward the little critters. Five or 
six
> days later you have an opportunity to take a closer look at mama spider. 
She
> is a glossy black color, and son of a gun, has a red hour glass on her
> belly. This is not what you had in mind when you believed your closet was
> big enough for you and the spiders, was it? An apathetic reaction is not 
in
> your best interest. Silently acquiescing to bigotry is as risky and 
stupid
> as deliberately sharing your closet with black widow spiders. And while 
the
> Brotherhood of the Kirk always exacts a price from their critics the 
cost of
> going along to get along is much too high for me.
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Rose”
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	HTH,
> 
> 	Saundra Lund
> 	Moscow, ID
> 	
> 	The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good 
people
> to do nothing.
> 	- Edmund Burke
> 	
> 	***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2007 
through
> life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
> reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
> permission of the author.*****
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
> 	Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 7:19 PM
> 	To: Bill London
> 	Cc: v2020
> 	Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Doesn't freedom of religion trump simple dislike for the church 
or
> some of it's members?  If there are irregularities with how they were
> granted permits or something, then that should be looked into.  But why
> disturb their festival?  What is their political and economic agendas 
that
> these activists are protesting?  
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Granted, people have a right to protest as long as they keep it
> civil and follow the law.  It's just that I have never understood why 
people
> are so opposed to them.  Most of the objections I've heard have to do 
with
> zoning laws and permits for the NSA school.  That sounds like a problem 
with
> the authorities and not Christ Church.  There are lots of comments about
> their theology (Southern slavery, odd ideas about how they think a
> "biblical" society would work, etc), but so what?  They have every right 
to
> believe as they wish, whether or not I think the lot of them have been
> standing too long in the hot sun with no hat.
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	I don't agree theologically with them at all.  But who am I to 
try
> to tell them they can't expand themselves?
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	I have great respect for you all as community leaders, I just 
think
> you going too far sometimes.
> 
> 	 
> 
> 	Paul
> 
> 
> 
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