[Vision2020] Mere Christianity!

Fri Aug 3 05:19:11 PDT 2007

Ted,I guess I still don't understand how you would have gotten any sense of disrespect from me regarding what I wrote about "taking seriously" Ralph's, my, or even Josh McDowell's arguments.  Ralph is a highly respected scholar; I'm a homemaker with a fairly worthless BA but a lot of grit and a little knowledge.  Our obvious disagreements aside, I think you would understand that I take seriously (and intend to respond kindly to) Ralph's scholarship, just as I would hope he'd take seriously and respond kindly to my contention -- belief, opinion, hope -- that Jesus rose from the dead.Am I avoiding debate with him?  I suppose, but perhaps not for the reasons you think.  One, I'm outgunned in scholarship.  Two, I doubt that most Visionaires would find it fascinating -- in the sense of enlightenment, not entertainment.  Three, I know my strengths and I know my limits.  I will always answer honest questions as well as I can, but God help us all if the Kingdom of God is dependent on the skill of my defense thereof.That said, I've never intentionally copped out of discussion or debate because it might get ugly, and so I will gladly submit to whatever challenges you, Ralph, or anyone else would offer -- with the understanding that I do so as someone with, yeah, a decade or so of lay ministry under my belt and, more important, a quarter-century of fervent belief that though I "see through a mirror darkly" now, it will all be made clear someday.keely"And these women that you spit on as they try to change their worlds/Are immune to your consultations . . . they're quite aware of what they're going through"(With apologies to David Bowie)Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 01:11:59 -0700From: starbliss at gmail.comTo: kjajmix1 at msn.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!CC: vision2020 at moscow.com; nielsen at uidaho.edu 
keely et. al.

You wrote to Ralph:

I believe that Jesus is in Heaven, having risen from the grave.  You don't.  And so, since some thinking people might take either of us seriously, let's let them decide -- with or without Josh McDowell, whose apologetic works I haven't read.  

----
Yes, I did read this that you were "making fun" of yourself, but your wording is easily read to imply you don't take Ralph's comments on the Resurrection seriously.  It seemed you were avoiding a discussion on this subject with Ralph when you stated "let's let them decide."

You can easily dispel my assumption that you were stating that Ralph's biblical scholarship and opinions on the Resurrection are not to be taken seriously (this was my main objection), by simply stating that you respect his opinions and knowledge of the Bible.  We know that you disagree with him on critical issues, but this does not preclude respect for someones knowledge and reasoning.

Or perhaps you do not respect Ralph's scholarship on the Bible.  Ralph certainly appears to offer his Biblical knowledge in all seriousness, and has defended his opinions on these matters when pressed.
------

Regarding my kind words about Nick Gier that I stated you dismissed as somehow out of line, the comments in question appear below, but I cannot find any response from you to my post!  It is possible you sent an "off list" e-mail response, but if so, this is lost in cyberspace oblivion.  I therefore apologize for making implications that now appear untrue!

http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2006-June/031807.html

Dick et. al.Why don't you focus your attention on Nick's arguments about the US decisionto invade Iraq regarding whether it was wise or not, instead of makingpersonal attacks against him?  Your personal attacks do nothing to further a
full understanding of how it is best to resolve the situation in Iraq.After having Nick as a teacher for several courses at the U of I, andknowing him a bit outside the classroom, I can assure you he does not
"salivate every time one of our troops gets accused of some heinouscrime..." as you put it.  I have found Nick to be a caring and kind person,and I am certain he feels saddened by the tragedies befalling US troops in
Iraq. 
Nor is it credible to suggest Nick wishes to see the "return of Iraq to adictatorship like Saddam's" as you phrased it.  This is a baseless personalattack to suggest this is what Nick wants, that only reveals your extreme
bias against someone who presents thoughtful and well reasoned fact basedanalysis regarding the war in Iraq.Ted Moffett
-----------------
Ted Moffett 
On 7/30/07, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

Wait, wait, wait ...Ted, I was poking fun at myself when I said that "thinking people would no doubt take either of us seriously," which was in response to Ralph's saying that "no thinking people" took Josh McDowell seriously.  I was saying that while I had never read McDowell, he's never read my stuff -- obviously.
I have never met Ralph, so I can't consider him a friend, but I don't consider him an enemy, either.  Nick, on the other hand, is my friend and someone I think the world of.  I can't comment on anything I might have said to you without knowing exactly what it was, but if I've ever offended you, please let me know.  It would not be my intention.
keely"And these women that you spit on as they try to change their worlds/Are immune to your consultations . . . they're quite aware of what they're going through"
(With apologies to David Bowie)

Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:04:42 -0700From: starbliss at gmail.comTo: 
kjajmix1 at msn.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!CC: nielsen at uidaho.edu
; vision2020 at moscow.com

keely et. al.

Too late to encourage a hesitation to not take you or Ralph seriously on this issue of the resurrection of Christ.

Hundreds of millions of people believe in the resurrection of Christ, as you do, and based on this belief, follow an ideology and resultant behaviors that have profound effects on our world, locally and otherwise.  You are obviously a very intelligent person who has chosen to lead a rather public life in regards to your opinions on this and related issues.  You certainly appear to want to be taken seriously! 

In regards to Ralph, he is knowledgeable about Biblical scholarship, and has also chosen to speak publically on Biblical issues.  It appears Ralph offers these opinions on Biblical issues with a basis in scholarship that is meant to be taken seriously. 

Are you saying Ralph's opinions on these issues are not worth taking seriously by thinking people?  I feel compelled to defend Ralph against your dismissal of the value of his opinion on this issue, hidden behind what appears like false modesty.  You don't really want us to not take you seriously on your opinion regarding the resurrection of Christ.   Should we have not taken you seriously in your radio debate with Doug Wilson? 

By the way, while I'm being confrontational, I once posted some kind words about Nick Gier to Vision2020 in response to some rather nasty attacks against Nick posted to the list.  You responded to my post, dismissing my kind words, indicating that Nick did not need me to defend him... I did not hear a word from NIck on this issue, one way or the other.  

So who are you to speak for Nick Gier?  If Nick does not want me to post kind words about him, he is perfectly capable of informing me of this fact, is he not? 
Ted Moffett

On 7/29/07, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote: 

Ralph,  I thought I'd hear from you on this! I believe that Jesus is in Heaven, having risen from the grave.  You don't.  And so, since some thinking people might take either of us seriously, let's let them decide -- with or without Josh McDowell, whose apologetic works I haven't read.  
 But that's OK.  He hasn't read mine, either. keely"And these women that you spit on as they try to change their worlds/
Are immune to your consultations . . . they're quite aware of what they're going through"(With apologies to David Bowie)
> From: nielsen at uidaho.edu> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:41:11 -0700> To: 
Vision2020 at moscow.com> Subject: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity! > > Reading some of the reasons why some of our readers believe what they 
> call Christianity is like reading Josh McDowell, who cannot be taken > seriously by thinking people.> > There is no evidence that Jesus or anybody else rose from the dead, > whether in Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or whatever. The claim 
> that most of the alleged disciples of Jesus died martyr's death is > pure fiction. The Bible doesn't even agree on who they were. And > there are no credible accounts of how they were supposed to have 
> died. Of course, that in itself proves nothing about the alleged > "truth" for which they are supposed to have died. History is full of > martyrs who died for what they believed was the "truth."
> > Here is another difficulty for resurrection believers. If Jesus rose > physically from the grave, where is he today--physically? The gospel > called Mark has no post-resurrection accounts at all. The one called 
> Matthew ends with Jesus on a mountain in Galilee. Luke has Jesus > going up into the clouds from Bethany, which is nowhere near Galilee. > John has no ascension account at all. His Jesus is already 
> transformed into a part-physical, part-spirit form which doesn't need > to ascend anywhere. Are these reliable eye-witness accounts? Give us > a break!> > =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > 
http://www.fsr.net > mailto: Vision2020 at moscow.com> =======================================================

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