[Vision2020] Mere Christianity!

[Joe Campbell]

Dear Paul,

I know you wrote to Keely but I can't help responding! Some of the items you note as 
being part of the Christian faith are not things that I particularly believe, so my comments 
are general. (I won’t say much about my particular beliefs.) Also, I don't pretend to be 
speaking for Keely -- who speaks well enough for herself -- or anyone else. I think that 
the topic is interesting and worth discussing, though. 

Here are some comments relating to some of your questions/claims.

You write: "You say, for example, that if Jesus wasn't the son of God then your sins 
would not be forgiven. However, this is the prototypical ‘straw man’ argument (not that 
you are intending to use it). The whole concept of sins needing to be forgiven originates 
in the same set of books that explained how they can be forgiven."

Small point: Your criticism is not that Keely is guilty of a straw man argument (e.g. 
attacking a position that no one actually holds) but that she is guilty of begging the 
question. This is relevant because it might be that any worldview -- scientific, religious, 
or otherwise -- ultimately begs the question, which is to say that eventually we all have to 
take bedrock claims for granted. (Ted makes a similar point.) 

Some of these claims are rather harmless -- the external world exists, laws of nature exist, 
the world is more than 5 minutes old, etc. -- but they are no less question-begging. You 
are not going to tell me that you have a proof of the external world, are you? Something 
that the entire history of philosophers -- including myself -- have missed? More likely 
you will argue that it is absurd to ask for such a proof, to even question the existence of 
the external world. And I agree! But this is just begging the question disguised as a joke.

You write: "There is an incredible amount in Christianity (as with most religions) that 
must be taken on faith. Faith that the world was created (though not necessarily 6000 
years ago). Faith that there exists a Creator who is somehow outside of time and yet able 
to interact with the universe He created. Faith that the miracles happened. Faith that the 
stories laid out in the Bible are true and were inspired (if not penned directly) by God. 
Faith that there is an afterlife. Faith that there is a Heaven, and a Hell. Faith that the 
current set of books in the Bible were chosen by God, and the others that were removed 
were made by Man. Faith that the books are all-encompassing, i.e. there are not 25 God-
inspired books lost through the ages. Faith that nothing was altered, after the fact.”

I don't see why being a Christian commits one to any of these particular claims. For each 
claim, I know at least one person who doesn't believe it yet believes he is a Christian. I 
know folks who call themselves ‘Christians’ and flat-out deny many of these claims. For 
instance, I think it is absurd to think that God -- or anything else -- can exist outside of 
time. Several Christians deny this particular claim since, they believe, it removes God 
from any causal interaction with the world and its inhabitants. Throughout the history of 
Christianity, folks have debated about whether God was inside or outside of time, so from 
an historical perspective this claim is not an essentially Christian claim.

Also, some Christians believe that the world was not created ex nihilo but that it is eternal 
like God and that He has merely sustained its existence throughout all eternity. I even 
have a friend who does not believe in the afterlife. He thinks that to believe in the 
afterlife is to cheapen life on earth and to expect that God owes us more than a finite 
existence; that thoughts of an afterlife compel belief when belief should be won through 
evidence and love. Yet he says that he’s a Christian. Some Christians consider 
themselves to be pantheists, or panentheists -- meaning they belief that God just is the world, or that He is at least the world and something more.

No doubt denying some of the claims you note is controversial. Someone might suggest 
that all of the above claims are essential to Christianity. I only want to note that the 
claims are (a) not accepted by all folks who call themselves ‘Christians’ and (b) which 
ones are or are not essential to Christianity is a set of hotly debated issues. 

You write: "Most of it [the above items of faith] cannot be found out barring a face-to-
face meeting with the Almighty. Even then, and maybe I'm the only one, I would believe 
in His power but I wouldn't necessarily believe in his truthfulness without at least some 
skepticism."

This is a VERY interesting comment! One might ask, What on earth would it take you to 
believe the above claims if a meeting with the Almighty wouldn't do it?

And herein lies the issue. What would it take you to believe in the existence of God? 
What would count as evidence, for you, that God exists? It is hard to say. Even if God 
were to appear before you, you could always provide some other explanation -- you were 
hallucinating, you were dreaming, it is just a false memory -- to make you discount the 
'evidence.' What could count as a proof that God exists, according to your belief? (Ted 
made this point, too.)

You write: “Pagan religions don't require faith, for example. You can feel free to believe 
that Loki is not real at your peril.  I'm not schooled in world religions, but the Abrahamic 
religions are the only ones that I'm aware of that place faith on a pedestal.”

I’m no expert on Pagan religions, although I was raised Catholic. (That was a bad joke 
and I apologize if I’ve offended any Catholics!) Yet I find it hard to believe that Pagans 
don’t find room for faith. As my examples, and Keely’s examples, of faith illustrate, we 
need it whether or not we are religious. (I would also ask you to explore the possibility 
that faith is something more than mere lack of evidence.) Lastly, many Christians will tell 
you that you reject Jesus at your peril, so I’m not sure what that point was supposed to 
illustrate. (Not that I would ever say this.)

Best, Joe