[Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures
debismith at moscow.com
debismith at moscow.com
Mon Apr 30 17:40:28 PDT 2007
Donovan's anxiety attacks aside, I think he is bordering on libel here, and likely needs a 48
hour detention to adjust his meds.
Debi R-S
Date sent: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:41:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>,
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
Failures
Paul,
You may be right. Sunil might be the most patriotic guy on the
planet. I don't know him that well either. But, personally, he
creeps me out the way he talks. My attempts to get him to say
anything to quell that anxiety, he just says stuff to make me more
uncomfortable and confirm my thinking about him. I don't doubt that
he does what he think is right.
Best,
Donovan
Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
Fair enough.
I'd think that the fact that he is doing what he can to change what he
doesn't like is evidence enough that he appreciates this country. But
I don't know the guy, so I have no way of knowing if that's true or
not.
Paul
Donovan Arnold wrote: Paul,
I agree with most of what you said. But I believe there is a
difference between a citizen genuinely making a constructive
criticism and someone just out to point out flaws in our government
and divide people.
I don't disagree with Sunil's arguments against Bush and our
country, I just disagree with his motives and dangerous solutions to
problems.
A guy that does nothing but attack the character of our country, its
uniformed members, and never praising it, ever, raises concerns for
me.
I'm saying, it sure would be nice if Sunil could say something nice
about the country instead of bashing it and supporting its enemy's
agenda 100% of the time.
Best,
Donovan
Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
An attempt to put this in perspective.
The United States of America differs from some other countries in that
it is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Our President, along with all other elected officials, is an ordinary
citizen who is supposedly carrying a burden in a self-less act of
devotion to the rest of us. He is not royal, he is not a deity, and
he is not of an official upper class. He works for us. He does not
have the license to tell us what is "patriotic" and what is not. What
he says about it is not Royal Decree, religious dogma, nor law. It is
the opinion of a fellow citizen that coincidentally happens to bring
him more personal power if you agree with him.
Thus, it makes sense to keep an eye on him and to make sure that he is
doing what *we* want him to do, not what *he* wants to do. If he is
doing something that goes against what the people voted him in to do,
then they are obligated to do something about it. To do otherwise
would be to turn your back on the idea of a representational
government. One way of "doing something" about it is to make your
concerns known publicly. Sunil, and others like him, should be
commended for not allowing our representative to work against our
wishes.
Our President is not representing me when he decides that we can be
allowed to use torture in our daily conduct as a nation, merely
because he can argue some loopholes in the Geneva conventions. Thus,
I make this known. He is not representing me when he decides that he
can spy on our private communications without legal warrants,
especially when he arrogantly ignores the process already in place
that is not onerous to get those warrants. Thus, I make this known as
well. He is not representing me when he orders secret camps in other
countries to be built to take our prisoners to when he wants them
tortured without benefit of public scrutiny, nor when he uses
"extraordinary rendition" to send suspects to other countries where he
knows they will be tortured. He is not representing me when he uses
"signing statements" to change laws he doesn't like into laws he does
like. He is not representing me when he bull-headedly sticks to his
Iraq strategy when it is clear that he
doesn't have popular support for it, especially knowing that he got
us into this war with bad arguments made from bad data that he knew
was not true when he used that data to manipulate us into backing him
in this war.
To remain silent is to betray your fellow citizens in the
representative democracy that we live in. To "attack our country" by
stating our opinions and declaring "NO!" when we need to IS
patriotism.
Paul
Donovan Arnold wrote: Reverend Keely,
For the 409382th time, I already told you, I am autistic, I don't
have a real sense of embarrassment. Why that doesn't stick in your
head seems to escape me, other than you listen with emotions and
feelings rather than intelligent rational thought. Perhaps not
having rational thought is your disability.
But, obviously having a sense of embarrassment doesn't keep you from
saying stupid, cruel, arrogant, ignorant, and I guess embarrassing
things either does it.
I don't question Sunil's patriotism, I just question which country
he places that patriotism in. He attacks our country regularly, he
never says anything pleasant about it. He defends the Taliban, even
those that attacked our troops. And now he is blaming our men and
women in uniform for the failures in Iraqi that have done their job
to the best of their ability and very heroically too, might I add.
Sunil has taken great steps and carefully worded everything he has
said to cover the fact that he has a strong disdain for the United
States, and avoided every opportunity to cast doubt on that by me
and others.
He has every right to hate the United States if he wants to. Many
people do. I just think he should be honest about it when he
criticizes this country so that we can see it in the proper context.
Right now, I view Sunil's words as words of a foreigner expressing
his opinion of the United States. I cannot view him as a patriot
questioning the policies of his country, until he gives me reason or
tells me otherwise. He has not done so, and purposefully avoids
doing so.
But once again Reverend Keely, I appreciate your moral advise, for
thou art holier than thee and all others. No doubt, in the end, the
pitch fork in your arse will be not be as hot or sharp as the rest
of ours.
Best,
Donovan
keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body { FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } At what point, Donovan, might it be
said that you've embarrassed yourself quite enough? Is there a
time that your brain and your keyboard will stop their collusion
in making you appear as you do?
I've met you. You're not that bad in person, and you undoubtedly have
a lot of good traits. In fact, I found you quite pleasant. But for
your own sake, as well as for the cause of civil discord, would you
please reexamine whatever it is about email that turns you into such a
badgering and bellicose pest?
And please remember that I'm not ordained; "Reverend Keely" is far
more than I'm entitled to.
keely
---------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:55:03 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
Failures
Sunil,
You wrote:
"Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being Joseph."
Clearly, I am neither. If I was McCarthy you would praising me for
my destruction of good leaders. If I were Joseph you would be at my
feet.
Don't blame others for not telling the truth when it cannot be
uttered from your own lips.
You have great courtroom tactics, Sunil. But I assure you, you have
answered the question for those of us that wanted to know.
Best,
Donovan
Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
Moscow's McCarthy continues to display his love of freedom by
imposing
loyalty tests.
Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being Joseph.
Sunil
>From: Donovan Arnold
>To: Sunil Ramalingam , vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
>Failures Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Sunil,
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Bush has said that the military has been sent all the troops they
>requested.
>Why didn't the generals request more troops from the beginning? Why
>didn't they admit how poorly things were going and put it back in the
>lap of the administration?"
>
>
> First, the Generals did ask for more troops and did give honest
>appraisals of the situation, they just did not publish that
>information for you and the enemy to see in the Washington Post and
>New York Times.
>
> Second, there were no more troops to be had.
>
> Third, more troops wouldn't solve the problem, it would just make
> the
>problem larger. The problem was the political objective, not military
> incompetence. They have guns not magic wands. This was Bush's
>blunder, not the officers, soldiers, or generals over there.
>
> Fourth, it is UNACCEPTABLE for an officer to be going to the AP and
>personally attack his commanding officers. There are proper ways of
>going about filing a complaint about a misbehaving or incompetent
>commanding officer. What this guy did was wrong and dangerous.
>
> Finally, we are still waiting for you to say, "I love my country,
> the
>United States of America."
>
>
> Best,
>
> Donovan
>
>Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> Donovan,
>
>On the one hand I don't disagree that the administration 'screwed
>this war up;' having said that, I think wars like this are always
>going to end in failure. But since the war began, up until he
>announced the 'surge,' Bush has said that the military has been sent
>all the troops they requested. Why didn't the generals request more
>troops from the beginning? Why didn't they admit how poorly things
>were going and put it back in the lap of the administration?
>
>It seems to me that generals saw the treatment Gen. Shinseki received
>after saying that four to five hundred thousand troops would be
>needed for the war, and they didn't want the same treatment for
>themselves. That's their fault, isn't it?
>
>Sunil
>
> >From: Donovan Arnold
> >To: Tom Hansen , thansen at moscow.com,
> >vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
> >Failures Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Complaining is one thing. But going to the media and to undermine
> >the command structure of the military during an actual military
> >action is not
>a
> >right.
> >
> > And I don't believe him anyway. I think it is the administration's
> > fault
> >for screwing this war up, not the generals.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >Donovan
> >
>
>
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