[Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Sun Apr 29 21:18:38 PDT 2007
Why in all that is holy, do we continue to go over this tired and worn-out
ground?
Every time Donovan forgets or chooses to not take his meds or just because
he's lacking attention from other sectors of his life, he pulls this line of
BS out and we all jump at it like its new and never been gone over to the
ninth degree.
LET IT GO! DON'T RESPOND TO THIS OBVIOUSLY SICK PERSON. Sunil has
ABSOLUTELY nothing to prove to Donovan much less the rest of the community.
To continue this type of dialog is fruitless and to an extent damaging to a
very good person and a very worthwhile person - Sunil.
Let Donovan stew in his own soup....whatever he gets, he deserves. Just
don't give him something he does not deserve - attention and validity.
J :]
>From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
>Failures
>Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:34:27 -0700
>
>
>Here's the thing, Paul. I do know the guy, and you're not likely to meet
>too many people with more integrity than Sunil. I've admired your
>conciliatory and irenic tone in the past, but there's nothing "fair enough"
>about anything Donovan has said in this or any other exchange. I'm not
>qualified to judge what he does deserve, but one thing Donovan doesn't
>deserve is the benefit of the doubt, and I would suggest that Sunil has
>more than proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he is a fine and decent
>man who loves his country.keelyDate: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:15:30 -0700From:
>godshatter at yahoo.comTo: vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] Army
>Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq Failures
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Fair enough.
>
>I'd think that the fact that he is doing what he can to change what he
>doesn't like is evidence enough that he appreciates this country. But
>I don't know the guy, so I have no way of knowing if that's true or not.
>
>Paul
>
>Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> I agree with most of what you said. But I believe there is a
>difference between a citizen genuinely making a constructive criticism
>and someone just out to point out flaws in our government and divide
>people.
>
> I don't disagree with Sunil's arguments against Bush and our
>country, I just disagree with his motives and dangerous solutions to
>problems.
>
> A guy that does nothing but attack the character of our country,
>its uniformed members, and never praising it, ever, raises concerns for
>me.
>
> I'm saying, it sure would be nice if Sunil could say something
>nice about the country instead of bashing it and supporting its enemy's
>agenda 100% of the time.
>
> Best,
>
> Donovan
>
>
> Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> An
>attempt to put this in perspective.
>
>The United States of America differs from some other countries in that
>it is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
>Our President, along with all other elected officials, is an ordinary
>citizen who is supposedly carrying a burden in a self-less act of
>devotion to the rest of us. He is not royal, he is not a deity, and he
>is not of an official upper class. He works for us. He does not have
>the license to tell us what is "patriotic" and what is not. What he
>says about it is not Royal Decree, religious dogma, nor law. It is the
>opinion of a fellow citizen that coincidentally happens to bring him
>more personal power if you agree with him.
>
>Thus, it makes sense to keep an eye on him and to make sure that he is
>doing what *we* want him to do, not what *he* wants to do. If he is
>doing something that goes against what the people voted him in to do,
>then they are obligated to do something about it. To do otherwise
>would be to turn your back on the idea of a representational
>government. One way of "doing something" about it is to make your
>concerns known publicly. Sunil, and others like him, should be
>commended for not allowing our representative to work against our
>wishes.
>
>Our President is not representing me when he decides that we can be
>allowed to use torture in our daily conduct as a nation, merely because
>he can argue some loopholes in the Geneva conventions. Thus, I make
>this known. He is not representing me when he decides that he can spy
>on our private communications without legal warrants, especially when
>he arrogantly ignores the process already in place that is not onerous
>to get those warrants. Thus, I make this known as well. He is not
>representing me when he orders secret camps in other countries to be
>built to take our prisoners to when he wants them tortured without
>benefit of public scrutiny, nor when he uses "extraordinary rendition"
>to send suspects to other countries where he knows they will be
>tortured. He is not representing me when he uses "signing statements"
>to change laws he doesn't like into laws he does like. He is not
>representing me when he bull-headedly sticks to his Iraq strategy when
>it is clear that he doesn't have popular support for it, especially
>knowing that he got us into this war with bad arguments made from bad
>data that he knew was not true when he used that data to manipulate us
>into backing him in this war.
>
>To remain silent is to betray your fellow citizens in the
>representative democracy that we live in. To "attack our country" by
>stating our opinions and declaring "NO!" when we need to IS patriotism.
>
>Paul
>
>Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> Reverend Keely,
>
> For the 409382th time, I already told you, I am autistic, I
>don't have a real sense of embarrassment. Why that doesn't stick in
>your head seems to escape me, other than you listen with emotions and
>feelings rather than intelligent rational thought. Perhaps not having
>rational thought is your disability.
>
> But, obviously having a sense of embarrassment doesn't keep
>you from saying stupid, cruel, arrogant, ignorant, and I guess
>embarrassing things either does it.
>
> I don't question Sunil's patriotism, I just question which
>country he places that patriotism in. He attacks our country regularly,
>he never says anything pleasant about it. He defends the Taliban, even
>those that attacked our troops. And now he is blaming our men and women
>in uniform for the failures in Iraqi that have done their job to the
>best of their ability and very heroically too, might I add.
>
> Sunil has taken great steps and carefully worded everything
>he has said to cover the fact that he has a strong disdain for the
>United States, and avoided every opportunity to cast doubt on that by
>me and others.
>
> He has every right to hate the United States if he wants to.
>Many people do. I just think he should be honest about it when he
>criticizes this country so that we can see it in the proper context.
>Right now, I view Sunil's words as words of a foreigner expressing his
>opinion of the United States. I cannot view him as a patriot
>questioning the policies of his country, until he gives me reason or
>tells me otherwise. He has not done so, and purposefully avoids doing
>so.
>
> But once again Reverend Keely, I appreciate your moral
>advise, for thou art holier than thee and all others. No doubt, in the
>end, the pitch fork in your arse will be not be as hot or sharp as the
>rest of ours.
>
> Best,
>
> Donovan
>
> keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>At what point, Donovan, might it be said that you've embarrassed
>yourself quite enough? Is there a time that your brain and your
>keyboard will stop their collusion in making you appear as you do?
>
>I've met you. You're not that bad in person, and you undoubtedly have
>a lot of good traits. In fact, I found you quite pleasant. But for
>your own sake, as well as for the cause of civil discord, would you
>please reexamine whatever it is about email that turns you into such a
>badgering and bellicose pest?
>
>And please remember that I'm not ordained; "Reverend Keely" is far more
>than I'm entitled to.
>
>keely
>
> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:55:03 -0700
>From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com;
> vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
>Failures
>
> Sunil,
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being
>Joseph."
>
> Clearly, I am neither. If I was McCarthy you
>would praising me for my destruction of good leaders. If I were Joseph
>you would be at my feet.
>
> Don't blame others for not telling the truth
>when it cannot be uttered from your own lips.
>
> You have great courtroom tactics, Sunil. But
>I assure you, you have answered the question for those of us that
>wanted to know.
>
> Best,
>
> Donovan
>
>
>
>
> Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> Moscow's
>McCarthy continues to display his love of freedom by imposing
>loyalty tests.
>
>Poor Donovan, wants to be Eugene and ends up being Joseph.
>
>Sunil
>
>
> >From: Donovan Arnold
> >To: Sunil Ramalingam , vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of Iraq
>
> >Failures
> >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Sunil,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > "Bush has said that the military has been sent all the troops they
>
> >requested.
> >Why didn't the generals request more troops from the beginning? Why
>didn't
> >they admit how poorly things were going and put it back in the lap
>of the
> >administration?"
> >
> >
> > First, the Generals did ask for more troops and did give honest
> >appraisals of the situation, they just did not publish that
>information for
> >you and the enemy to see in the Washington Post and New York Times.
> >
> > Second, there were no more troops to be had.
> >
> > Third, more troops wouldn't solve the problem, it would just make
>the
> >problem larger. The problem was the political objective, not
>military
> >incompetence. They have guns not magic wands. This was Bush's
>blunder, not
> >the officers, soldiers, or generals over there.
> >
> > Fourth, it is UNACCEPTABLE for an officer to be going to the AP
>and
> >personally attack his commanding officers. There are proper ways of
>going
> >about filing a complaint about a misbehaving or incompetent
>commanding
> >officer. What this guy did was wrong and dangerous.
> >
> > Finally, we are still waiting for you to say, "I love my country,
>the
> >United States of America."
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Donovan
> >
> >Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> > Donovan,
> >
> >On the one hand I don't disagree that the administration 'screwed
>this war
> >up;' having said that, I think wars like this are always going to
>end in
> >failure. But since the war began, up until he announced the
>'surge,' Bush
> >has said that the military has been sent all the troops they
>requested.
> >Why didn't the generals request more troops from the beginning? Why
>didn't
> >they admit how poorly things were going and put it back in the lap
>of the
> >administration?
> >
> >It seems to me that generals saw the treatment Gen. Shinseki
>received after
> >saying that four to five hundred thousand troops would be needed
>for the
> >war, and they didn't want the same treatment for themselves. That's
>their
> >fault, isn't it?
> >
> >Sunil
> >
> > >From: Donovan Arnold
> > >To: Tom Hansen , thansen at moscow.com,
> > >vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Army Officer Accuses His Generals of
>Iraq
> > >Failures
> > >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >Complaining is one thing. But going to the media and to
>undermine the
> > >command structure of the military during an actual military
>action is not
> >a
> > >right.
> > >
> > > And I don't believe him anyway. I think it is the
>administration's fault
> > >for screwing this war up, not the generals.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > >Donovan
> > >
> >
> >
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